Sim City and WTC7

[UncleSim 2]

Please look at the World Trade Center site in NYC on a map if you are not familiar with it. The site, including WTC7, is shaped kind of like a keystone, with WTC7 at the top of the key.

You can see a main road, West St, running vertically up the left side of the site, and West Broadway comes down from the top right, next to WTC7, and ends at the WTC. The site divides Greenwich street running north-south, and nearly meets Broadway.

My question for my fellow players is this: If this site was in your Sim City, what do you think the traffic layer would look like? What would you do, in YOUR simulation, to improve it? Could you do what you want without demolishing WTC7?

  Edited October 17, 2011 by UncleSim  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

One assumes the phantom parallelepipeds crossing the street are underground accesses. I don't see any problem, but both Barclay and Vesey streets would be one-way with as many lanes as would fit. The traffic jam would have to fall where it may. If the worst came to the worst, Vesey could become a pedestrian mall.

[Urbanator 7]

Although WTC7 is in some ways separate from the rest of the site I would keep it but it isn't looking good for Verizon... In my sim-reality Verizon would be replaced by a multi-transit station (GLR/Subway with bus and parking) and the part of Vesey Streey which splits the complex would likely become pedmall. Depending on traffic need I would perhaps add in more GLR/Bus/Subway stations around the area to reduce car traffic.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Although WTC7 is in some ways separate from the rest of the site I would keep it but it isn't looking good for Verizon... In my sim-reality Verizon would be replaced by a multi-transit station (GLR/Subway with bus and parking) and the part of Vesey Streey which splits the complex would likely become pedmall. Depending on traffic need I would perhaps add in more GLR/Bus/Subway stations around the area to reduce car traffic.

You do know that the WTC site includes a huge transportation hub underground, eh? And the Port Authority Transit system is within spitting distance.

[Urbanator 7]

Good point! Not to say, however, that I wouldn't necessarilly adapt certain things anyway. There's no GLR in the area is there? If not then I would likely still get rid of Verizon to accommodate a GLR station with pedmall access to the rest of the complex. I like to have different access points to the busiest areas in my cities plus I also like GLR (probably a little TOO much).

On a side note - what does the Port Authority Transit System consist of?

[UncleSim 2]

I don't think I'd want to destroy a large building on a busy corner (Verizon) just to put in a mass transit hub. I usually factor them into my city design anyway.

But I think by connecting Greenwich all the way thru, and also to W Broadway, it will ease N-S traffic past the site, allowing greater traffic to flow with less congestion. An MT station could even be placed right in the middle of the new site on Greenwich street as it passes thru. Also, consider the heavy traffic entering Manhattan just south of the site. With Greenwich a thoroughfare now, the site no longer acts a bit like a cork, bottling the north-bound traffic south of the WTC.

I assume you all have experimented, at least, with the expansion packs? The higher capacity stations (compared to stock facilities) make multi-tile mass transit buildings almost unnecessary, since you can squeeze in a single-tile station almost anywhere. And do you use tollbooths much? I use them so extensively, I don't have to charge tax in any of my mature cities, to meet the budget. But I still do

[UncleSim 2]

A Nonny Moose, in that image, those passages crossing the streets were pedestrian skyways above the street, not below. But you can run subway below almost any city tile, so do what you like with that. I try to keep my road layout consistent, without bottlenecks, as I always end up maxing traffic capacity. Where it's heaviest, I add tollbooths and zone commercial.

[UncleSim 2]

See, I look at that map, and if I can't take down WTC7 to connect Greenwich street thru, I might not rework the site at all. For me, building 7 would be the key to reworking that whole keystone shaped parcel.

[Urbanator 7]

I don't think I'd want to destroy a large building on a busy corner (Verizon) just to put in a mass transit hub. I usually factor them into my city design anyway.

...

I assume you all have experimented, at least, with the expansion packs? The higher capacity stations (compared to stock facilities) make multi-tile mass transit buildings almost unnecessary, since you can squeeze in a single-tile station almost anywhere. And do you use tollbooths much? I use them so extensively, I don't have to charge tax in any of my mature cities, to meet the budget. But I still do

I suspect my city layouts are a little unorthodox and I do like mass transit a great deal. I agree that it would seem unnecessary to place a large transit station anywhere in the area but I do like to use transport buildings more aesthetically rather than purely functional - I don't have any 1-square stations unless it makes sense in the context of the surrounding area. Part of the reason I would replace the Verizon building is that the position for me is pretty good for covering the WTC complex and the other major zones in the area.

As for tollbooths - I use them for all my city road exits (only). I used to use them on access roads to important areas but it was getting a bit ridiculous so I dropped that tactic.

[UncleSim 2]

As for tollbooths - I use them for all my city road exits (only). I used to use them on access roads to important areas but it was getting a bit ridiculous so I dropped that tactic.

Yes, they can get a bit ridiculous, but so can the revenue from them. Check the screenshots of 'Waterfront' which I just posted here... $36k/mo expenses, $61k/mo revenue, and most tax rates below 3%. I could run with zero taxes, if I wanted.

[Urbanator 7]

This will be the second time I've relied (some sort of SQL error). Anyway, Your city is quite reminiscent of the way I used to do mine, even down to the tolled bridges. Mind you, I don't think my cities earned as much since they never became as large as Waterfront is. Nowadays, tollbooths are incompatible with most parts of my city due to my obsessive love of GLR (especially on-road GLR) so they only appear on the exit roads. Mind you, even restricted to the exits I can still be raking it in... which is just as well since I like to have aesthetic cities and they ain't cheap!!

  Edited October 17, 2011 by Urbanator  

[UncleSim 2]

@Urbanator... when I first learned to use toll booths (from a post here) I think I did it like you, primarily on the exits to other cities, and not much more. I still used a lot of 1-way roads to make a grid within the border boulevards back then, varying between 8-tiles square and 4x8 between those (and a few 4x4), and would put zones in the large areas, and support structures in the smaller ones. But you can't put tolls on 1-way roads, so I've been switching to just boulevards since then on my newer cities, so I can toll the internal roads too. Its not quite as compartmentalized and planned out, but I find having empty spaces filled with parks or nothing but trees littered through the zones helps mitigate some of the negative effects like pollution and traffic noise, and actually improves the density I get in the remaining zones.

I have been trying a new star pattern, which basically still uses all boulevards, makes a medium city look like 4 squares inside the city square, then I just build arrays off of the central boulevards...

...which seems to do an even better job of improving residential desirability, per zone.

Another trick I've only learned lately, which you can see near the bottom, is to dispatch a police helicopter to the zoo, and leave it there, to prevent the 'lions on the lam' from continually recurring. It worked so well, I did the same for the university, the casino, and the airport, and most of those hard crime spots went away, too.

  Edited October 18, 2011 by UncleSim  

[x493x 446]

Greenwich tunnels to W Broadway. Vessel becomes tunnel. Pedestrian walkways where roads use to be. (This all being said with absolutely no clue to what traffic is like on anny of these roads or if tunnels are even possible).

[UncleSim 2]

Greenwich tunnels to W Broadway. Vessel becomes tunnel. Pedestrian walkways where roads use to be. (This all being said with absolutely no clue to what traffic is like on anny of these roads or if tunnels are even possible).

Interesting... sounds cool.

Do you build tunnels often, in your cities? I rarely do, if ever, so I'm not sure how traffic from them would access the surface buildings. And presumably, that complex would have a lot of traffic in/out, as well as around and through. Pedestrian walkways look nice, but sims don't like to walk very far, so I might not go as far with them as you would.

  Edited October 18, 2011 by UncleSim  

[Urbanator 7]

@UncleSim - Interesting layout and not a million miles away from what I like to do, albeit on a different scale. For the main routes I have avenues but I spur off smaller routes for the Rs (2 4x4 zones side-by-side). This helps to keep most of the traffic polution away from the residents. I could even have tollbooths on every major artery except for the fact that I use so much GLR - this is of more benefit, I think, than the money I would get from the tolls.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I am at a loss to justify GLR at all. There is a huge subway nexus as part of the WTC. New York, as far as i know since I haven't been there in over 20 years, does not have a tram system at all. It is a city of subways.

[x493x 446]

Greenwich tunnels to W Broadway. Vessel becomes tunnel. Pedestrian walkways where roads use to be. (This all being said with absolutely no clue to what traffic is like on anny of these roads or if tunnels are even possible).

Interesting... sounds cool.

Do you build tunnels often, in your cities? I rarely do, if ever, so I'm not sure how traffic from them would access the surface buildings. And presumably, that complex would have a lot of traffic in/out, as well as around and through. Pedestrian walkways look nice, but sims don't like to walk very far, so I might not go as far with them as you would.

I do use tunnels a lot and really for a building to work just one tile of it needs to be touching a road so I see no problem with building access due to the tunnels.

[Urbanator 7]

I am at a loss to justify GLR at all. There is a huge subway nexus as part of the WTC. New York, as far as i know since I haven't been there in over 20 years, does not have a tram system at all. It is a city of subways.

I use GLR because I like trams - its as simple as that. Plus, you can't admire a city from a subway carriage.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I am at a loss to justify GLR at all. There is a huge subway nexus as part of the WTC. New York, as far as i know since I haven't been there in over 20 years, does not have a tram system at all. It is a city of subways.

I use GLR because I like trams - its as simple as that. Plus, you can't admire a city from a subway carriage.

You can't do much admiration from a street car either. Too much of a mob scene, especially in New York, New York.

[Urbanator 7]

I can't really speak for NY but when I was in Toronto I do remember being able to take in sections of city life from the trams, which was a totally different feeling from the underground (which I also enjoyed ...apart from the crush).

For me SC4 can be as much about aesthetics as pure function; after all, quite a few of my city layouts would never exist in the real world because they don't even slightly resemble the norm.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I can't really speak for NY but when I was in Toronto I do remember being able to take in sections of city life from the trams, which was a totally different feeling from the underground (which I also enjoyed ...apart from the crush).

For me SC4 can be as much about aesthetics as pure function; after all, quite a few of my city layouts would never exist in the real world because they don't even slightly resemble the norm.

About the only parts of Toronto you can take in from trams is the Beaches and the Long Branch/Mimico line. The rest is pretty much in the business area and there is not much to take in unless you like small business neighborhoods like the one along Kingston Road or the Danforth/Bloor line beyond the subway. Frankly, street cars in Toronto are pretty dull ways to see the town. You are better off on foot in places like Rosedale. You see, I lived and worked in Toronto for many, many years.

  Edited October 20, 2011 by A Nonny Moose  

[Urbanator 7]

About the only parts of Toronto you can take in from trams is the Beaches and the Long Branch/Mimico line. The rest is pretty much in the business area and there is not much to take in unless you like small business neighborhoods like the one along Kingston Road or the Danforth/Bloor line beyond the subway. Frankly, street cars in Toronto are pretty dull ways to see the town. You are better off on foot in places like Rosedale...

I don't think I ever claimed trams were the best way of viewing a city (if so, then it certainly wasn't my intention) but they are a better way than subways and driving through busy traffic.

...You see, I lived and worked in Toronto for many, many years.

Good for you and I hope you enjoyed it, its a great place. However, am I not entitled to enjoy the business district or the entertainment district if I want to? I like office blocks but I also like watching what's going on in a place like the entertainment district. I also enjoy walking through them as well but if I was driving or taking the subway I wouldn't really see as much.

Just my 2p worth (11p with inflation?)

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

About the only parts of Toronto you can take in from trams is the Beaches and the Long Branch/Mimico line. The rest is pretty much in the business area and there is not much to take in unless you like small business neighborhoods like the one along Kingston Road or the Danforth/Bloor line beyond the subway. Frankly, street cars in Toronto are pretty dull ways to see the town. You are better off on foot in places like Rosedale...

I don't think I ever claimed trams were the best way of viewing a city (if so, then it certainly wasn't my intention) but they are a better way than subways and driving through busy traffic.

...You see, I lived and worked in Toronto for many, many years.

Good for you and I hope you enjoyed it, its a great place. However, am I not entitled to enjoy the business district or the entertainment district if I want to? I like office blocks but I also like watching what's going on in a place like the entertainment district. I also enjoy walking through them as well but if I was driving or taking the subway I wouldn't really see as much.

Just my 2p worth (11p with inflation?)

Well, if you enjoy the city, so do I. I used to walk home from work on King Street all the way north to St. Clair. I used to enjoy the after work crowds along Yonge Street, and sometimes stopped for dinner in places that no longer exist.

[Urbanator 7]

Sounds like you might miss it a little - sa do I and I was only a tourist.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Sounds like you might miss it a little - sa do I and I was only a tourist.

The Toronto I knew in the 1960's to 1990's is long gone. "Toronto the Good" has become "Toronto the big cosmopolitan city". However, it has many redeeming merits including a penchant for world stunning architecture. Examples that come to mind:

The New City Hall. The old one is now a court house and administrative center.

Roy Thompson Hall. (The Glass Tutu)

The new facade on the Royal Ontario Museum on Bloor St.

The Art Gallery of Ontario

The Four Seasons Center for Performing Arts (New opera house).

Then there are horrible examples of Bauhaus that just make me shake my head, notably the campus of York University. And of course there is lots of Victorian stuff around as well as some of the worlds more notable clusters of office towers. The Royal Bank building with its golden windows for example, and the startlingly white marble of the Bank of Montreal which also houses the Toronto Stock Exchange. Then there is the very industry praising facade of 44 King St. West (the Bank of Nova Scotia) with lots of bas reliefs. It is a mixed bag for architectural students, including things like the Japanese Cultural Center and the Ontario Science Center. It just goes on and on. It is a big place.

[Urbanator 7]

Its a big place but its also a rather nice place, architecturally speaking. The business district is definitely worth a look for anyone who likes 'scrapers.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Its a big place but its also a rather nice place, architecturally speaking. The business district is definitely worth a look for anyone who likes 'scrapers.

We should get back on topic. But I think the layout of the WTC is pretty much cast in concrete now.

Did you get to the top platform on the CN Tower?

[Urbanator 7]

We should get back on topic. But I think the layout of the WTC is pretty much cast in concrete now.

Did you get to the top platform on the CN Tower?

We should indeed.

We did - its a view like few others... Well worth the trip (and the air-blasting).