Bottled Water

[hamsterTK 93]

I think the whole argument is ludicrous. Humans are neither masters nor subservient to nature, rather we are a part of it. We are just animals, albeit smart ones.

Anyways back on subject, its a matter of opportunity costs and long vs. short term gain. Strictly defined, waste is something you don't need that prevents you from getting what you do.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Duke87

Rule of thumb: anything that makes someone (be it a person, a company, or a government) money has that as its primary function. No exceptions.quote>

In a free society, there are things called tax incentives.   If the government wants you to do X, it can give you a tax break.  If it doesn't want you to do Y, it can charge you more tax.  Either way, it is still your choice whether to do X or Y.

It's another version of the carrot and the stick.   Yes, it makes money but it is also a form of encouraging or discouraging certain behaviors.

[Duke87 1,070]

I don't mind the concept of incentives and discouragements, but the refusal to call a spade a spade is irksome. Politicians need to cut the crap with words like "fee", "fare", "fine", "funding program", "surcharge", "deposit", etc. These things are TAXES, and substituting a euphemism for the word doesn't change that.

But beyond that, why do you think Connecticut all of a sudden decided to add bottled water to the list of "deposited" items last October? If you answered "to encourage people to recycle them", you fail Politics 101. Connecticut, like every other state, is facing budget shortfalls nowadays. And, well, as per the Hartford Courant:

Assuming nickel deposits from a third of those containers were unclaimed {ed. note: Connecticut's bottle return rate is about 68%}, the state could reap an estimated $42 million.quote>

This is what we call a "tax hike". 

[fukuda 351]

I've been drinking tap water since I was a small child, even in Africa (This led to some funny cases of africans asking me where my water bottle was), the african thing is mostly a "bad" habit I inherited from my mother, though.

I only buy bottled water to use the plastic bottle as a water container when I go hiking or climbing, I have glass bottles at home to pour the tap water into anyway.

There is no reason for me to buy bottled water for daily use. I'm not going to put a filter either, 2 years ago I worked 3 months at a local water treatment plant as my final practice for the technical license and I know how many safety procedures and methods are enforced in our water plants. It's unluckily a different story in water bottling companies.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Duke87

I don't mind the concept of incentives and discouragements, but the refusal to call a spade a spade is irksome. Politicians need to cut the crap with words like "fee", "fare", "fine", "funding program", "surcharge", "deposit", etc. These things are TAXES, and substituting a euphemism for the word doesn't change that. quote>

The spin doctoring does get old, that's for sure.

But beyond that, why do you think Connecticut all of a sudden decided to add bottled water to the list of "deposited" items last October? If you answered "to encourage people to recycle them", you fail Politics 101. Connecticut, like every other state, is facing budget shortfalls nowadays. And, well, as per the Hartford Courant:

Assuming nickel deposits from a third of those containers were unclaimed {ed. note: Connecticut's bottle return rate is about 68%}, the state could reap an estimated $42 million.quote>

This is what we call a "tax hike". quote>

But it's a tax hike based on behavior, or lack thereof.   A "sin" tax.   Each individual has a choice whether or not they want to engage in this behavior.

The Washington, DC city government recently passed a new tax:  5 cents for every plastic taken from the grocery store.   It sounds stupid but it was motivated by the fact that a huge percentage of the trash in the Anacostia river is plastic grocery bags.  They hope that the tax will encourage people to take reusable bags to the grocery store and that it will raise enough money to clean up the river.

I do not know why so many plastic grocery bags wind up in the river, but they do.  I don't have a better idea for cleaning them up.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

We have had an anti-plastic bag campaign going on here for many years.  The green/purple grocery box thing worked for a while until people realised how useful these containers are for other stuff.  The grocery stores then went to a reusable cloth bag which can be had for $1 ($2 for a big one).  As of about a year ago, there is now a 5 cent charge for a very flimsy plastic grocery bag if you don't have enough cloth bags or own boxes for contain your order.  Yet, people are still being stupid about this.

Plastics are made from petroleum which means that amount of petroleum cannot be used as a direct fuel source, and the fuel consumed in producing the plastic doesn't really account for the "conventience".  I am beginning to think that the "convenience generation" might very well be the one that makes the environment unlivable.

Back to platic water bottles, please.

[hamsterTK 93]

The Anacostia is disgusting, for that matter all the waterways around DC seemed to be that way. I remember visiting Mt. Vernon and taking a walk along the Potomac. Tons of floating garbage on the shore. Maybe it has improved since 2003.

Though the bag tax is an interesting challenge because what about retail stores right over the boundary? DC has another problem, a lack of grocery stores in poor neighborhoods that offer low prices and decent selection, and sit on transit routes. I can see this would be an issue in the SE.

Thankfully I guess Virginia is a little less convenient a hop due to traffic and/or attempting to haul groceries on the metro. That and the two most liberal counties likely to also try a measure are the ones right across the water.

[fukuda 351]

I'm sure that this is a punishment for talking too much about tap water:

Cool, a pipe burst somewhere in the network close to my home, so today's water is not even good enough to wash the dishes...

[Meg 368]

Odd. Today, the same thing happened here.

[Meastro444 1]

I can allways trust on the my country to have the cleanest drinking water of the world, out of the tap.

go Holland, at least that's something to be proud of.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: fukuda

Cool, a pipe burst somewhere in the network close to my home, so today's water is not even good enough to wash the dishes...

quote>

That water is actually probably still drinkable, believe it or not. Unless the soil where the main broke is contaminated, all you have is a lot of turbidity, which is harmless. Just let it sit for a while so the particulate matter has a chance to settle out and it'll be nice and clean.

[fukuda 351]

I'd say that it has a nice amount of ammonia according to its rather strong smell

[Rymac91 15]

The only reason I buy bottled water is pretty simple... I want a drink in class but I have no clean vessel to store it in, I'll just buy this plastic bottle with water already in it!

Of course if I'm on campus for a while, I'll just refill the bottle at a drinking fountain.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Originally posted by: Meg

Odd. Today, the same thing happened here.quote>

Two widely separated instances?  Says something about the infrastructure, eh?

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Meastro444 1]

Personally Barbarossa, I think you are a little paranoid, but I do not know how the waterquality from the tap in theUS is. Here in Holland the quality is excellent. No need to use water bottles.

Personally I re-use bottles for a weeks on end. Only when they do smell I throw them away. Never got sick of it.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Reusing a water bottle for future water needs is a negative, unless you wash it after every other use. Washing it once a week or so is a recipe for illness. Just think about the saliva that gets trapped in the screw guides, left to grow and be augmented until it is finally washed. quote>

Eh. A few germs won't kill you. Too much bother and inconvenience for not enough gain.

By the way, buying a 20oz bottled water is more expensive than just buying a gallon.quote>

Except you can't really drink it directly out of the gallon jug, so the convenience aspect is lost.

[fukuda 351]

Two widely separated instances? Says something about the infrastructure, eh?quote>

Yeah, sadly.

I understand and agree that tap is "suitable" for human consumption, but it still takes like crapquote>

Depends on the treatment. Modern treatment processes produce water with no noticeable taste or odor, but it also depends on your water treatment plant's quality of treatment and how old it is.

Reusing a water bottle for future water needs is a negative, unless you wash it after every other use. Washing it once a week or so is a recipe for illness. Just think about the saliva that gets trapped in the screw guides, left to grow and be augmented until it is finally washed. I'm just saying... quote>

Bacteria don't live out of thin air, unless there is a relatively abundant carbon source into your water they won't grow into a dangerous or noticeable number, sure that you can find trace amounts of bacteria into your bottle, but unless you do weird things with it there should be no carbon (or other basic elements) sources available. And that's without taking into account the chlorine and other substances put into tap water to control bacterial populations.

*Funny fact: you can find up to 16 different species of roundworms in the tap water of Barcelona, and this is considered a fairly low amount by treatment standards

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Z77 3]

Its all depended on what i drink. There has only been one brand of bottled water that i drank and that was ethos water, and that was Actual spring water. I personally hate the taste of bottled water because it tastes like plastic (duh!) But then again, Ive been to Florida and tap water from there tastes like something dying. (Florida i guess gets their water from above ground sources, while my home town in Illinois sits on a natural spring aquifer, so its muy delicioso )

[Meastro444 1]

No offense intended Barbarossa. The re-use habits made me think that. I personally have never had problems re-using bottles.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Muck308 55]

From what I understand, storing water in plastic containers for long periods of time can allow for toxins to seap into the water. I think after a year or so that water is no good. But this should really depend on what type of plastic the contanier is made out of. I don't know about the validity of that statement, but my dad mentioned it to me.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

It is said that you have to eat a peck of dirt before you die.  I don't go out of my way to do so which may explain why I am past my expiry date.

The water here is from the local aquifer via two deep wells and a treatment system that is tested daily by the public health people.  There are about 200 people living in this forested park, and we jointly pay for water testing.  The water here is hard but palatable.  When we had cats, they got diarrhea if we didn't filter their water, but the dogs have never had a problem.  My late wife didn't like the tap water either and always used the tap filter.

Anytime I have been exposed to bottled water other than Perrier or Evian, I have found it insipid, tasting almost distilled.  Ptha!  I try to avoid it.  However, when travelling in Europe, I do get travellers trots, but an intestinal sterilizer usually fixes this, as I reinfect with the local bugs.  This problem happens in France, but not in London.  Just an environmental thing, I guess.

The local town just got a new water tower and connection to the local filtration plant.  We are on a separate system, but the water from the local municipal system is Ok too,  It is sourced from Lake Huron, so it is probably the same water table.  Unless things have changed in the last year or so, Lake Huron is safe to drink anyway, as is Lake Superior.  The lower great lakes are another proposition altogether as there are too many large cities starting around Lake Erie who have been dumping who knows what into the lakes.

I think the biggest point against habitually using bottled water is the expense.  People are frightened by all the media's dire warnings, and this is a bad thing.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Look at it this way:  If I use a fork for something, I am not about to just set it aside and re-use it again the next day without washing it.quote>

Well, bits of food left to sit on a fork will get old, dry out, grow mold, and generally become yucky.

Meanwhile, water is mostly just water. If kept in a sealed vessel designed for its containment, it is not subject to substantial change.

Besides, there is a key reason for washing flatware that has nothing to do with pathogen growth or hygeine: cross contamination of different things you don't want mixed. A glass, once filled with milk, may then continue to be refilled with milk over and over again in one sitting just fine (although it will go bad if you leave it out). However, if you then decide you want juice, you're going to wash the glass or get a new one, since if you just use the milk glass you will get milk flavored juice. Ew.

Originally posted by: Muck308

From what I understand, storing water in plastic containers for long periods of time can allow for toxins to seap into the water. I think after a year or so that water is no good. But this should really depend on what type of plastic the contanier is made out of. I don't know about the validity of that statement, but my dad mentioned it to me.quote>

Well, this was an issue with a certain plastic that was being used for baby bottles, that some toxic chemical in it would leech out when it got hot (such as when you put it in the microwave). But generally speaking, plastics are pretty inert. That's why they make great containers!

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[fukuda 351]

From what I understand, storing water in plastic containers for long periods of time can allow for toxins to seap into the water. I think after a year or so that water is no good. But this should really depend on what type of plastic the contanier is made out of. I don't know about the validity of that statement, but my dad mentioned it to me.quote>

Oh yes, you should use glass containers for long-term use, plastic storage is just for when you're in a hurry.

However, when travelling in Europe, I do get travellers trots, but an intestinal sterilizer usually fixes this, as I reinfect with the local bugs. This problem happens in France, but not in London. Just an environmental thing, I guess.quote>

Actually (sorry if it sounds like I'm badmouthing my own country), France's water system is quite a bit unhygienic, and toilets are even worse. Extra care should be taken with water when travelling around France, unluckily.

Plastics are not inert. Bulky plastic will pass through the digestive system, yet we have all heard about phthalates. There is also a reason why some governmental entities have outlawed certain types of plastic for containers - namely for food/drink (you have to look across the pond, they are still legal in the US). quote>

Most terminal water ducts are still made of PVC and other outlawed plastics though. And it's even worse in old cities where most mains are still made of lead :\

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

Plastics are not inert. Bulky plastic will pass through the digestive system, yet we have all heard about phthalates.quote>

Phthalates! Yes, that was the problem with the baby bottles. Thanks for jogging my memory there.

There is also a reason why some governmental entities have outlawed certain types of plastic for containers - namely for food/drink (you have to look across the pond, they are still legal in the US).quote>

"Certain types of plastics", yes. Emphasis on certain types. There are no doubt some potential threats in some plastics.

At the same time, however, the hazards of these sort of things are often exagerated by the sort of people who automatically assume that "chemicals" are bad for you without actually knowing what they're talking about. Note how easy it is to convince some people that dihydrogen monoxide should be banned.

Originally posted by: fukuda

Oh yes, you should use glass containers for long-term use, plastic storage is just for when you're in a hurry.quote>

Define "long-term use". Weeks? Months? Years?

Most terminal water ducts are still made of PVC and other outlawed plastics though. And it's even worse in old cities where most mains are still made of lead :\quote>

Lead pipes, meanwhile, are less of a problem if you can keep the pH up. New York City puts phosphate in its water for this purpose.

[fukuda 351]

Originally posted by: Duke87

Originally posted by: fukuda

Oh yes, you should use glass containers for long-term use, plastic storage is just for when you're in a hurry.quote>

Define "long-term use". Weeks? Months? Years?quote>

Months and years.. Weeks too if you want.. It's also a question of convenience.. A glass bottle is usually easier to clean than most plastic bottles.

Most terminal water ducts are still made of PVC and other outlawed plastics though. And it's even worse in old cities where most mains are still made of lead :\quote>

Lead pipes, meanwhile, are less of a problem if you can keep the pH up. New York City puts phosphate in its water for this purpose. quote>

Indeed, it's mostly a problem in places where acid soils are abundant. Using phosphate as a buffer, hmm. Well, there shouldn't be a problem as long as your calcium intake is ok. The Phosphate/Calcium equilibrium is one of the most important things when controlling bone growth after all.. But as long as your calcium intake is normal and the phosphate amounts are low there shouldn't be a problem. Oh wait am I repeating myself?

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: fukuda

Originally posted by: Duke87

Originally posted by: fukuda

Oh yes, you should use glass containers for long-term use, plastic storage is just for when you're in a hurry.quote>

Define "long-term use". Weeks? Months? Years?quote>

Months and years.. Weeks too if you want.. It's also a question of convenience.. A glass bottle is usually easier to clean than most plastic bottles.quote>

This should be extended to left over  food storage  as well. either use glass containers or reuse the plastic ones.

I think i have been using the same glad ware plastic container for 3 years when i take my  fruit and raw vegies for lunch.