Bottled Water

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

The bottled water craze is reaching staggering proportions in North America.  People living in cities with perfectly adequate municipal or alternate piped-in water are buying it by the case.  It costs more than gasoline in a lot of cases.  Tap filters are available, and most fridges that dispense water have filters built-in.  What is going on?  Is this another of Mad Ave's coups?

There is no arguing the need for bottled water in many other countries.  Municipal water supplies are often, at best, grey water.

[Easy Bakes 253]

Coke and Pepsi decided there was a way to make money selling people 16 ounces of tap water for $1.50.

you will notice most of the big brands are owned by coke or pepsi and is just filtered water,even the water they deliver to water cooler inthe 5 gal bottles is all just filtered from municiple scources. I dont buy bottles water except if im going to a ball game or something and its convenient to have something like that to take in. especialy since they charge 3-4 bucks for bottled water at ball games.

[Duke87 1,070]

Well, one thing is that it is simply a matter of convenience. "Grab it, use it, dispose of it" stuff has become very popular for a lot of different things, not just water. With such things you never have to refill, clean, or otherwise maintain them, you just need to restock them.

The other thing particular to bottled water, though, is that someone somewhere got the idea that tap water was icky, disgusting and/or bad for your health, and a lot of people ended up thinking the same way. There is a certain clientelle who find the idea of "pure, all natural" bottled water attractive. The same sort of people who think tap water is bad for you because "they put chemicals in it". 

Of course, it's all nonsense (fluoride is not a commie plot to rob us of our essence), but people believe it anyway.

On another note, Streets of Simcity, known for (among other things) its hilarious ads, had several about brands of bottled water. Who wants some Aqua Compo?

It's gotta be better! It's imported!

[Easy Bakes 253]

Did it all start with Perrier?

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

Did it all start with Perrier?

quote>

Or Evian.  Both from France and are, in fact, water from specific springs whose health effects they tout.

So far, no one has mentioned the high pollution rate from bottled water containers.  A lot of those bottles wind up in landfills, even if you put them in your recycle box.

[Muck308 55]

I have no problem whatsoever drinking tap water. I only drink bottles of water if I'm at work and I grab one from the fridge there. My roommate claims that our tap water makes him sick. Hogwash if you ask me. When I lived with my parents, we had a well. It was fine to drink but a little hard, making it difficult to wash stains out of clothes. I can't believe America got snooty about clean fresh water being piped into their homes. Mass idiocy if you ask me. The one thing I've noticed about the containers, the bottle caps have gotten smaller in recent years, (some brands that is) which I doubt was an attempt to reduce waste but instead an attempt to reduce production costs. Even still, it's that much less plastic lying in landfills.

[CHR 2]

Fluorine in the water actually helps protect your teeth, so drinking bottled water has not only a detrimental effect on the environment, but your own health.

[Easy Bakes 253]

I wonder how a nation wide bottle deposit law would go over.

It would at least get the emptys out of the landfills

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

I wonder how a nation wide bottle deposit law would go over.quote>

Considering that bottle deposits have always been a state thing? Hell no.

Connecticut started putting deposit on water bottles last fall. They'd like you to believe it's about the environment (it's a recycling law!), but that's bullcrap. What it is is a hidden tax. You charge 5 cents extra on every water bottle, and then give 5 cents of credit when those bottles are returned to the recycling machines. Inevitably, some of them will not be returned. You know where those unclaimed nickels end up? The state treasury!

Meanwhile, it doesn't cost the state money to do this since they just require that supermarkets buy and maintain the machines. No wonder store owners hate them!

[Easy Bakes 253]

I realy  meant that state would be required to have a bottle deposite law

they do work to  remove a lot the emptys from being just dumped.

 

[Muck308 55]

A lot of people out there would be happy to pay an extra nickel to see that the bottles are recycled. I would think so anyway.

[hamsterTK 93]

I haven't had bottled water in a long time.

There was a time though when for some idiotic reason I found it more convenient to pull a bottle from the fridge than fill a glass, but I am past that. If you live somewhere that the tap isn't good then get those large refillable 10 gallon jugs and take them to a distilled water store.

[Zelgadis 638]

It's not just about recycling either.  There is an entire infrastructure in place producing bottles (using oil), producing the bottled water product (consuming resources) and shipping to stores (polluting the air).  Better just to cut out all this crap and get it from the tap or a large dispenser.

ISF

 

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

I really meant that state would be required to have a bottle deposite lawquote>

Bah. The difference is purely semantic.

The constitution says the federal government can't tell states what to do on matters of state law. Achieving the same effect de facto by saying "do this or we're not going to give you federal funding for X" is a disgusting practice that needs to stop.

they do work to remove a lot of the emptys from being just dumped.quote>

True, bottle deposit laws have been demonstrated to increase recycling rates. What I don't like is how it functions as a tax.... something which I don't see a good way of revising the law to avoid.

Personally, I'd instead advocate a "one bin, all in" method of disposal. Trash, recycling, whatever, just throw it all in the same can. Then it can be sorted into trash versus recycling at a facility designed for such purpose (The NYC Subway already does this). That way, you don't have to worry about people putting things in the wrong bin - which will inevitably happen, requiring the mistakes to be sorted out, anyway (at least on the recycling side). This then should achieve a near 100% recycling rate.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Zelgadis

 Better just to cut out all this crap and get it from the tap or a large dispenser.quote>

That's assuming there is a tap or large dispenser around when you need one.

Personally, I'm happy to carry a bottle of water around.  I've wanted to do so all of my life.  One of the joys of low blood pressure is dehydration = low fluid volume = passing out.   I was frequently passing out as a kid.   They said it was because I "couldn't take the heat".   I kept telling people I needed water and gulped down as much as I could whenever I could get near a fountain but I was always told to stop drinking so much.  I wanted to take my girl scout canteen along while leaving the house but I was told that "young ladies don't do that".  and, sure enough, several hours later, I'd be unconscious on the ground.

All of that said, I do believe there are too many plastic bottles around these days.  I don't use bottled water in the house.  I filter the tap water.  There is an odd taste that lets me know when it's time to change the filters.  (I have two of those filtered water pitchers that I keep in the refrigerator.)

I am glad that, when I am out and about, I have the opportunity to get portable cold water.  (As a kid, I pictured it being in cans.  We didn't have plastic bottles back then.)  but I always take something with me when I leave the house, usually in a reusable container.

I do believe that, for most places in North America, transporting water from elsewhere is a waste.  When I need to get a bottle of water, I don't care if it comes from Maine or France; that is a waste of transportation fuel as far as I am concerned.   I just want it to be cold, drinkable, and available.  (A local store is now carrying water from Fiji.  To which I can only ask:  What is wrong with you people?)

As for the bottle deposits, they used to be standard. Coke and beer came in glass bottles that were expected to be returned so they could be reused.  and they were worth a nickel each.  

As for recycling plastic bottles: they make good polar fleece.  [link]

[Easy Bakes 253]

Originally posted by: Meg

Originally posted by: Zelgadis

 Better just to cut out all this crap and get it from the tap or a large dispenser.quote>

That's assuming there is a tap or large dispenser around when you need one.

Personally, I'm happy to carry a bottle of water around.  I've wanted to do so all of my life.  One of the joys of low blood pressure is dehydration = low fluid volume = passing out.   I was frequently passing out as a kid.   They said it was because I "couldn't take the heat".   I kept telling people I needed water and gulped down as much as I could whenever I could get near a fountain but I was always told to stop drinking so much.  I wanted to take my girl scout canteen along while leaving the house but I was told that "young ladies don't do that".  and, sure enough, several hours later, I'd be unconscious on the ground.

All of that said, I do believe there are too many plastic bottles around these days.  I don't use bottled water in the house.  I filter the tap water.  There is an odd taste that lets me know when it's time to change the filters.  (I have two of those filtered water pitchers that I keep in the refrigerator.)

I am glad that, when I am out and about, I have the opportunity to get portable cold water.  (As a kid, I pictured it being in cans.  We didn't have plastic bottles back then.)  but I always take something with me when I leave the house, usually in a reusable container. quote>

The reusable container is a good solution to bottled water,the insulated ones can keep them reasonably cool most of the day except when in direct sunlight. Even the cheapo one i got a conveneice store keeps my tea  nice and cold most of the day even in the car.and i can always stop and add ice to it which is free. the bottles need to be stored in a container  with cooling pack to stay cold all day, that assuming you  drive around all  day like i do.

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: Muck308

A lot of people out there would be happy to pay an extra nickel to see that the bottles are recycled. I would think so anyway.quote>

There are consumers who are happy to pay extra money for the peace of mind that their trash is being recycled so they don't have to worry about it.  I am not one of those people; I take issue with being forced to support a recycling program I don't believe in.  Furthermore, on some level, I take offense to the growing notion that I should want to support "eco-friendly" initiatives or give a damn about your beliefs about protecting the environment.  (That is a general comment directed to no one in particular.)  If a company suggests that I care about the environment, I generally put their product back on the shelf and find an equivalent product that doesn't carry such stupid claims.

The modern environmentalist movement isn't about actually helping humanity by helping the environment; it's driven by the few using emotional manipulation to convince the masses to force the government to take steps to soothe the consciousnesses of a relatively few delusional individuals.  Pull up literature from an environmentalist group like Greenpeace or the Sierra Club and you will likely find material talking about the benefits of recycling, composting, or something similar.  But when was the last time you heard them talking about the need for new waste management models?  Something that is often ignored amidst all the pro-recycling literature is the fact that not all waste is a feasible choice for recycling.  Greenpeace is happy to tell you that we're drowning in our own trash and thus we need to be aggressive about promoting recycling, but you'll find no mention of the fact that they helped stall the development of the technology that has offered the greatest hope ever of us solving our waste management problems.

If people want to recycle, that is their perogative.  However, they would do well to realize that the warm fuzzies they feel about doing their share to help protect the environment are a lie; they aren't doing squat to actually help the environment, and, and as the EPA was forced to admit to the US Congress several years ago, they might actually be making the problem worse.

[SounderBruce 173]

Some bottled water isn't that bad...I've seen the smartwater bottling center...its not tap, they actually filter it well!

I love my smartwater!

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

I wonder how a nation wide bottle deposit law would go over.

It would at least get the emptys out of the landfills

quote>

Not really, it would enrich a few bureau-crabs, and they would still wind up in the land-fills.

Originally posted by: Muck308

A lot of people out there would be happy to pay an extra nickel to see that the bottles are recycled. I would think so anyway.quote>

State or National, you are helping the job market, and not necessarily improving the land-fills.

Originally posted by: hamsterTK

I haven't had bottled water in a long time.

There was a time though when for some idiotic reason I found it more convenient to pull a bottle from the fridge than fill a glass, but I am past that. If you live somewhere that the tap isn't good then get those large refillable 10 gallon jugs and take them to a distilled water store.

quote>

Better than that, install a filter on your water tap.  These have at least two modes:  Straight through and through the filter.  You don't have to lug hundred pound bottles of water around nor pay for a cooler, either.

Originally posted by: Zelgadis

It's not just about recycling either.  There is an entire infrastructure in place producing bottles (using oil), producing the bottled water product (consuming resources) and shipping to stores (polluting the air).  Better just to cut out all this crap and get it from the tap or a large dispenser.

ISF

 quote>

Ian, you are singing my song, but I like the middle ground.  I have a Brita tap filter on one of my faucets.

Meg, that's all very well as long as you are willing to ensure that recycling takes place.  Can we have your undertaking on this?  I agree that sometimes bottled water is needed when you are traveling, but using it as a matter of course, especially at home is clearly out to lunch.

[Zelgadis 638]

I like the way Toronto does things.  It's reverse of the usual.  If you want to recycle, that's free.  If you want to throw out garbage, then that will cost you money.  

I don't begrudge anyone for not being big environmentalist or anything, but regardless of whether or not you believe that we have climate change and dwindling oil, etc. I still think we can all agree that we don't like giant, ugly, smelly landfills blighting the landscape.  I'm not a big environmentalist myself, but I do religiously recycle.  There may not be a landfill in my backyard, but there's one in someone's backyard, so the less I can contribute to the growth of one of those things, the better.

Meg:  I certainly don't begrudge you the bottled water.  Mom's the same way.  A bottle for her will last at least a week.  Wash, rinse, reuse.    

N_O_Body:  Yes, I certainly agree if you like filtered water than a faucet add-on is the way to go.  

ISF

 

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes

  

. . .  the bottles need to be stored in a container  with cooling pack to stay cold all day . . .quote>

 

Yup.   I have a variety of insulated containers and cooling packs.

 

Originally posted by: hym

. . .  Furthermore, on some level, I take offense to the growing notion that I should want to support "eco-friendly" initiatives or give a damn about your beliefs about protecting the environment. quote>

  

What do you believe about protecting the environment?  

 

 

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

Meg, that's all very well as long as you are willing to ensure that recycling takes place.  Can we have your undertaking on this?  quote>

 

As the saying goes, I can't ensure that I can get a bunch of people to whistle "Yankee Doodle Dandy".   (If anyone gets that reference, you will.  )

 

 

Originally posted by: Zelgadis

Meg:  I certainly don't begrudge you the bottled water.  Mom's the same way.  A bottle for her will last at least a week.  Wash, rinse, reuse.    quote>

 

I have a nice one with a handle that is easy to carry when I'm out walking.   and those ice cube trays that make the long skinny cubes that will fit in the bottle.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: hym

If people want to recycle, that is their perogative.  However, they would do well to realize that the warm fuzzies they feel about doing their share to help protect the environment are a lie; they aren't doing squat to actually help the environment, and, and as the EPA was forced to admit to the US Congress several years ago, they might actually be making the problem worse.quote>

Well, as with anything else: "it depends". That's always a good mantra to remember.

- Aluminum costs more and takes more energy to mine than it does to recycle, so it's absolutely worth it to recycle soda cans.

- Plastic is cheaper and more energy efficient to make from crude oil. However, that's making it from crude oil, which is a finite resource - which also must be considered. Also consider that less stuff made from crude oil lowers the price of it which lowers the price of gas, jet fuel, etc. which lowers the cost of transportation which lowers the cost of everything else. Though I don't think anyone's ever tried to calculate the magnitude of that benefit.

- Paper... may or may not be cheaper to recycle. I can find sources explicity reporting both ways. I am thus inclined to think that "it depends". Regardless, trees are a perfectly renewable resource, and paper is perfectly biodegradable, so there is at least no pressing need to recycle it independent of cost.

- Glass costs more and takes more energy to recycle than to make from scratch, and from scratch it comes from sand, which there's not going to be any shortage of anytime soon. Recycling glass is absolutely not worth it in the greater scheme of things.... however, the deposit still makes it (artificially) worth your while to return those beer bottles to the store, even if they end up in a landfill anyway (often the case). You're throwing nickels away (to your state government) if you don't.

On a less day to day note:

- ASTM A992 recycled steel is actually stronger (F_y=50 ksi) than ASTM A36 steel made fresh from iron and coal (F_y=36 ksi). Which costs more? Again... "it depends".

Originally posted by: Zelgadis

Meg:  I certainly don't begrudge you the bottled water.  Mom's the same way.  A bottle for her will last at least a week.  Wash, rinse, reuse.quote>

So, let me get this straight... your mother has an empty bottle, which had contained water. She then washes it... with water (and I assume some sort of soap). Then she rinses it... with water. And finally, she refills it... with water. Am I the only one that sees the absurdity here?

I've been known to reuse water bottles. Both summers I worked for the City of Stamford, the same three bottles of Poland Spring lasted me all summer, refilled at the water fountain as needed. But I never washed them. That'd be silly.

[beebs 129]

Originally posted by: Duke87

So, let me get this straight... your mother has an empty bottle, which had contained water. She then washes it... with water (and I assume some sort of soap). Then she rinses it... with water. And finally, she refills it... with water. Am I the only one that sees the absurdity here?

I've been known to reuse water bottles. Both summers I worked for the City of Stamford, the same three bottles of Poland Spring lasted me all summer, refilled at the water fountain as needed. But I never washed them. That'd be silly.

quote>

Well like anything, water bottles can collect bacteria. It'd be a good idea to wash your water bottle with soap at least every few weeks.

As for buying bottled water, I do relatively frequently.. it's just convenient. I do also recycle them.. also equally convenient.

hym: You don't buy anything that promotes itself with green/eco-friendly stuff? You must have a hard time finding some stuff nowadays

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: Meg

Originally posted by: hym

. . .  Furthermore, on some level, I take offense to the growing notion that I should want to support "eco-friendly" initiatives or give a damn about your beliefs about protecting the environment. quote>

  

What do you believe about protecting the environment?   quote>

Since humanity only has one place to live, it is important we don't wreck the place, but that fulfilling that goal should not come at the expense of human progress.  Some believe that we have a responsibility to the planet or "Nature"; that is utter nonsense.  The planet doesn't care what we do to it, and "Nature" is subservient to the needs of humanity.  In short, if it isn't human, it is worth less than a human.  Call it calloused that an animal is worth less than a human, but no animal will ever have the impact on this planet that a human can.

Originally posted by: beebs

hym: You don't buy anything that promotes itself with green/eco-friendly stuff? You must have a hard time finding some stuff nowadaysquote>

My issue isn't that it's supposedly green/eco-friendly.  My complaint is that we use it as a selling point.  For example, Western Digital now sells hard drives that are marketed as green because they use less power than the other drives in its product line.  Bragging about how your hard drives are good for the environment because they use less power is just stupid; it does nothing to provide me the information necessary to make an informed purchase, nor does being eco-friendly contribute to the improved performance of the drive should I use it in my computer.  Basically, it's marketing BS and I attempt to avoid supporting product lines that carry such stupidity.

[Zelgadis 638]

Originally posted by: Zelgadis

Meg:  I certainly don't begrudge you the bottled water.  Mom's the same way.  A bottle for her will last at least a week.  Wash, rinse, reuse.quote>

So, let me get this straight... your mother has an empty bottle, which had contained water. She then washes it... with water (and I assume some sort of soap). Then she rinses it... with water. And finally, she refills it... with water. Am I the only one that sees the absurdity here?

quote>

Not quite.  The empty bottle also sports a lipstick smudge.    It doesn't take much to clean.  Wipe the rim, give it a quick rinse to get what little soap on it off, and it's ready to go.  

ISF

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: hym

"Nature" is subservient to the needs of humanity.  quote>

hmmm . . . I don't believe that hurricanes, earthquakes, tsumanis, droughts, tornados, and blizzards have received that memo.

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: Meg

Originally posted by: hym

"Nature" is subservient to the needs of humanity.  quote>

hmmm . . . I don't believe that hurricanes, earthquakes, tsumanis, droughts, tornados, and blizzards have received that memo.quote>

I was using it more in the context that I have heard some environmentalists use it, ie. "nature is good and pure," "look at all the pretty wild animals living in harmony," and other fantasies.  (Admittedly, the statement was very much open to interpretation since I didn't provide further clarification the first time around.)

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: hym

Originally posted by: Meg

Originally posted by: hym

"Nature" is subservient to the needs of humanity.  quote>

hmmm . . . I don't believe that hurricanes, earthquakes, tsumanis, droughts, tornados, and blizzards have received that memo.quote>

I was using it more in the context that I have heard some environmentalists use it, ie. "nature is good and pure," "look at all the pretty wild animals living in harmony," and other fantasies.  (Admittedly, the statement was very much open to interpretation since I didn't provide further clarification the first time around.)quote>

Pretty wild animals do have a tendency to eat each other for dinner.

But, looking for further clarification here . . .

Originally posted by: hym

Since humanity only has one place to live, it is important we don't wreck the place, but that fulfilling that goal should not come at the expense of human progress.  quote>

So, if the price of human progress is wrecking the place, that's okay?

Some believe that we have a responsibility to the planet or "Nature"; that is utter nonsense.  The planet doesn't care what we do to it, quote>

It might not "care" but it can certainly show the effects and throw them back at us.   Just ask the folks at Love Canal or Chernobyl.

and "Nature" is subservient to the needs of humanity.  quote>

still working on what that means . . .

In short, if it isn't human, it is worth less than a human.  Call it calloused that an animal is worth less than a human, but no animal will ever have the impact on this planet that a human can. quote>

hmmm . . . The watermen on the Chesapeake Bay disagree with you.  They believe that the runoff from the nearby chicken megafarms is destroying the nutrients in the bay, and therefore the oysters and crabs.

[CHR 2]

On the idea of a bottle deposit tax, I see no harm in charging 5c more for a drink, if that money can be reclaimed when the bottle is handed in. If it results in more recycling, good for it. If it results in a little more money for the government, I don't really see much harm in that either, especially as they need to raise money some how (if not through bottles, through taxes...). Either way, someone who is paying a fortune to have their water imported from the finest French springs can easily afford an extra 5c on their water.

General rant about environmental stuff:

I think one could argue for ages on whether or not nature/animals have any right in themselves to be preserved - i.e. whether humans have the right to use animals and nature for their own purposes as much as they see fit. However, I think that no one here would deny that humans themselves have a right to live comfortably and happily - effective resource management is something important to human's ability to live comfortably.

In terms of resource conservation, I think that it is wise to try and minimise the amount of resources we use now, for a few reasons. Firstly, I think that future generations have a right to live comfortably too - what makes a person in the future any less deserving to have access to the resources we now have? If we use up everything now, people in the future will have nothing to provide a decent standard of living to themselves with.

Secondly, I realise that if we use too many resources now, that within my life time, there will be considerable increases in the price of resources - a tangible consequence to myself. We can see with oil prices, the problems that price rises have - it increases not only the cost of driving your own car, but also increases the cost of just about everything you buy in shops (which was driven there in trucks).

I don't think that people should completely stop using resources, but we have to realise that there are a finite amount of resources on the planet. The number of people on the planet and their quality of life is increasing, resulting in more and more resource use. We not only have to reduce the amount we use now so that people (including ourselves) in the future have access to resources, but we have to start developing a society which can cope with the less raw materials that we will have in the future - which is where recycling comes in.

Personally, I think recycling is perhaps the easiest way we can contribute to helping the environment. It takes literally a second to determine that something is paper, or metal, or plastic (perhaps an additional second to check the bottom to make sure it is recyclable plastic). While I acknowledge that my recycling some cans is not much of a difference, it nevertheless is a difference, and something which is quite easily achieved.

I think that there are plenty of economic reasons (for example, recycled aluminium costing 10x less to produce than aluminium from aluminium ore - due to the huge amounts of energy required; or indeed the fact that we will run out of oil and have nothing to power our entire economy) to recycle and be green where we can, aside from the fact that there may actually be some intrinsic value in keeping a few acres of natural forest where we can see a few animals wandering about.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: Zelgadis

Not quite.  The empty bottle also sports a lipstick smudge.quote>

Ah. Well, I never had that problem.

Originally posted by: CHR

On the idea of a bottle deposit tax, {...} If it results in a little more money for the government, I don't really see much harm in that quote>

The harm is in that it's a hidden tax. Most people don't even realize that states make money off of these programs. It's a fact that's always been kept kinda hushed, so they can lie and tell you that bottle deposits are actually about recycling. Rule of thumb: anything that makes someone (be it a person, a company, or a government) money has that as its primary function. No exceptions.