70 Years Ago

[belfastuniguy 18]

70 Years ago today, the British declared war on Germany following the invasion of Poland, it is widely seen as the start of the Second World War.

I DO NOT want this to turn into the typical My Country Won the War, we have another thread for that, so use it.

This is about the war, it's consequences and the Europe that evolved from the carnage. Today Europe is the most united it has been in its entire history, we are the second largest democracy in the world and the largest and most powerful trading bloc in the world. We have a union comprised of nations that exist peacfully together and act as an example of social progression and a guardian of civil and human rights.

Europe has come a long way, and Europeans can feel incredibly proud of our achievement.

War declaration on Nazis recalled

Mr Chamberlain described his declaration of war as a "bitter blow"

The moment Britain finally declared war on Nazi Germany exactly 70 years ago is being remembered.

Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain made his sombre radio broadcast at 11.15am on 3 September 1939, two days after German forces attacked Poland.

France followed suit hours after the historic address at 10 Downing Street.

There are no official events to mark the anniversary, but war-related re-unions and debates are being held in northern England and London.

A group of land girls who worked together on farms in Lincolnshire during the war will be reunited in Grimsby - some for the first time in 70 years.

'Peace struggle'

The former Land Army girls, who ploughed fields, dug up potatoes, tended animals and harvested crops, will enjoy a £2 wartime lunch at a care home.

Historians will discuss the importance of Britain's wartime leader, Winston Churchill, in a debate at London's Central Hall in Westminster.

And the Royal British Legion's 14th annual bike ride from Greenwich in London to Paris - to raise cash for past and present service personnel - is, by coincidence, also being held.

I cannot believe that there is anything more or anything different that I could have done, and that would have been more successful Neville Chamberlain Tell us your wartime stories Granddaughter's defence of war PM

More than 170 cyclists, who hope to raise £300,000, will leave Dover for Calais on Thursday and are expected to arrive in Paris on Sunday lunchtime.

On Tuesday Foreign Secretary David Miliband joined world leaders - including German chancellor Angela Merkel - at Gdansk in Poland to mark the 70th anniversary of the start of the war.

In his historic broadcast from the Cabinet room, Mr Chamberlain admitted his "long struggle to win peace" had failed.

He said: "This morning the British Ambassador in Berlin handed the German government a final note stating that, unless we heard from them by 11 o'clock that they were prepared at once to withdraw their troops from Poland, a state of war would exist between us.

Evacuations

"I have to tell you now that no such undertaking has been received, and that consequently this country is at war with Germany.

"You can imagine what a bitter blow it is to me that all my long struggle to win peace has failed.

"Yet I cannot believe that there is anything more or anything different that I could have done, and that would have been more successful."

On Friday the Citizens Advice Bureau (CAB) will also mark its 70th anniversary - the day after the famous declaration.

The organisation started out as an emergency wartime service, launching 200 offices on 4 September 1939 as a result of government war planning.

It was run by the voluntary sector to help civilians trace missing relatives and cope with the huge disruption, evacuations and bombings.

The Second World War lasted nearly six years and cost around 50 million lives with an estimated 400,000 military and civilian casualties from Britain.quote>

Poland remembers World War start

World leaders at wreath-laying ceremony in Poland to mark the 70th anniversary of WWII

Poland has been holding a day of commemorations to mark the 70th anniversary of the outbreak of World War II.

Leaders from 20 countries laid candles during a ceremony near Gdansk.

Earlier, Polish President Lech Kaczynski criticised the former Soviet Union over responsibility for the war.

His words added to an ongoing row with Moscow, although Russian PM Vladimir Putin said he hoped the two countries could settle their differences.

Mr Kaczynski said Poland had received a "stab in the back" from the former Soviet Union when it invaded and occupied the east of the country as the German army was advancing westwards.

He again criticised the non-aggression pact between the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany in the early years of the conflict, saying it was about dividing Europe.

ANALYSIS Jonny Dymond BBC News, Gdansk   There was, of course, talk of heroism in the speeches of the Mayor of Gdansk, President Lech Kaczynski and Prime Minister Donald Tusk. But for Poland, perhaps more than any other nation on earth, World War II was nothing but a catastrophe. By the war's end, 5m-6m Poles had been killed - a greater proportion of its population than any other country. Poland remembers its catastrophe

Mr Kaczynski recalled the Katyn massacre in which 20,000 Polish officers were killed by Soviet forces, saying it was an act of chauvinism and in revenge for Polish independence.

But he also praised the Soviet Union's sacrifice against Nazi Germany.

Speaking at the ceremony on Westerplatte peninsula, Mr Putin highlighted that nearly half of the estimated 50 million people who died during the war were from the Soviet Union.

The Russian prime minister said all pacts that European states agreed with Nazi Germany were "morally unacceptable", including the 1939 Soviet accord.

He added that Russia accepted its mistakes of the past.

Occupation

Differing historical interpretations of events at the start of the war though have caused a strain in relations between Poland and Russia.

Turning his attention to that controversy, Mr Putin said: "We seriously hope that Russian and Polish relationships will rid themselves of the layers of the past."

Earlier, a dawn ceremony had marked the time when a German battleship fired the first shots on a Polish fort in 1939.

Putin strikes conciliatory note with Poland

The day began with Mr Kaczynski and his Prime Minister Donald Tusk joining war veterans beside a monument to the heroes of Westerplatte at 0445 (0245 GMT).

The ceremony marked the exact time on 1 September 1939 when the German battleship Schleswig-Holstein opened fire at point-blank range on the fort.

At the same time, the German Wehrmacht invaded Poland from east, west and south. The attacks triggered Britain and France's declaration of war against Germany two days later.

Just two weeks later, in mid-September 1939, the Soviet armies occupied eastern Poland.

Speaking at the dawn ceremony, Mr Kaczynski said: "On 17 September... Poland received a stab in the back... This blow came from Bolshevik Russia."

He added: "Glory to the heroes of Westerplatte, glory to all of the soldiers who fought in World War II against German Nazism, and against Bolshevik totalitarianism."

In his address, Mr Tusk said the lessons of history should not be forgotten.

"We remember because we know well that he who forgets, or he who falsifies history, and has power or will assume power will bring unhappiness again like 70 years ago," he said.

At the time of the attack by the Schleswig-Holstein - which was moored in the Polish harbour on a friendship visit - Gdansk was known as the free city of Danzig.

The 182 Polish troops defending the Polish fort were expected to resist for about 12 hours. Despite coming under fire from the air, sea and land, they held out against a force of more than 3,000 Germans for seven days.

According to a survey published on Monday, Westerplatte is the most important symbol of Polish resistance in the whole of the war.

Two weeks after the German invasion, the Red Army invaded and annexed eastern Poland under terms agreed in the secret protocol of a Nazi-Soviet pact.

Watching the start of World War II Pact that set the scene for war UK service to mark evacuations

In early 1940, the Soviet secret services murdered more than 20,000 Polish officers in the forests around Katyn. For 50 years Moscow blamed the Nazis and only admitted responsibility for the crime in 1990.

Russian courts have ruled that Katyn cannot be considered a war crime and Moscow is still refusing to declassify documents about the massacre.

The temperature was raised further this week with accusations broadcast on Russian state TV which implied the USSR was justified in its invasion of Poland because Warsaw had been conspiring with Hitler against Moscow.

quote>

 

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[redrummage 9]

Well it goes "unnoticed" in the US because there was no major battles fought here, and the fact that the US involvement in the war with aid didn't begin until 1940. War wasn't declared in the US until late 1941. Ask any jewish american if it goes without a glance and they will refute you.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

I did say "barely" a glance.  Observance in the US is minimal.

quote>

It's a touchy subject here. A lot of people don't like giving wars too much attention because they don't want to glorify them.

Couple that with the fact that most of the people here who actually fought in the war are now dead and it becomes quite willingly buried in the past and forgotten about.

Besides, Americans have never been big on history. We don't like dwelling on the past. We don't memorialize, we rebuild. We don't look back, we focus on the present.

Hell, even 9/11 is pretty much just another day by now. And that was only eight years ago.

It becomes tiring going through ceremonies for things annually. By this point, the buildings which came down at the World Trade Center site are far less important than the buildings which are going up there. The people who died... eh, unless you knew one personally, 3000 people is just a statistic (Stalin was onto something there).

[belfastuniguy 18]

We hardly glorify the war.

It was the war that led to a determination within European nations to build a better future, we have created a society that has attained freedoms and respect unparalleled anywhere else on Earth. People need to be reminded of the futility of war as well as be reminded of what the war was fought for.

All very well for some Americans to 'ignore' it, but that's rather typical. (Note the use of 'some' before people collapse into a fit of hyperbole screaming Anti-Americanism.....so tiresome)

[belfastuniguy 18]

To remember the war is to remember the sacrifice and to see how far we have come.

Europe has a proud and long tradition of remembrance and historical education, especially with war. We educate the new generations on how war should be avoided at all costs and the damage it causes. That is why we remember our wars, and we always will.

America is no different when it comes to the wars you fought.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

We hardly glorify the war.

It was the war that led to a determination within European nations to build a better future, we have created a society that has attained freedoms and respect unparalleled anywhere else on Earth. People need to be reminded of the futility of war as well as be reminded of what the war was fought for. quote>

Indeed, but, politically speaking, memorializing any aspect of a war is easily (mis)construed as glorifying it by a lot of people. This is not entirely incomprehensible when you consider that by honoring soldiers who went overseas and fought you say that their actions were honorable. If you're the type who refuses to believe that fighting is ever necessary, you'd want those soldiers dishonored, and anything else seems glorifying by comparison.

As for freedoms unparalleled anywhere else on Earth... The US, Canada, and Australia say hi.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Canada and Australia, come close, but they do not have the same levels of civil protections and freedoms enshrined in the European Convention on Human Rights.

As for the US....hardly comes close to Europe to be frank.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

As for the US....hardly comes close to Europe to be frank.

quote>

I beg to differ.

Consider the following:

In many European nations, there are laws against denying the holocaust. In many nations, European and otherwise, the government rates video games and other media, and has the authority to ban them if they deem them inappropriate. In Germany it is illegal to display or even posess a swastika. In the UK, you have the Obscene Publications Acts. France has a ban on wearing of over religious symbols in public institutions.

Now contrast all that with this:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

This single passage, arguably the most important passage of any document in human history, prevents all of those things from occuring in the US. The value of that cannot be overstated.

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: belfastuniguy

I DO NOT want this to turn into the typical My Country Won the War, we have another thread for that, so use it.quote>

This thread shall also not be used for petty "My country/continent is better than yours..." arguments.  Posts of that nature will be edited or deleted.

[Kryptowhite 9]

I can't tell you who won the war the most but I think we all know who lost the war the most

Anyways the reason Americans don't care for WWII as much as say, the American Revolution, or 9/11, is because WWII wasn't really about us. World War II was more about Ally Europe versus Axis Europe, and America was just a bonus for Ally Europe. If you think about it, in America only three WWII events [excluding the holocaust] draw major attention, Iwo Jima, Pearl Harbor, and D-Day, two of which happened in the Pacific Theater, and one of which is only famous because of a photograph taken there.

[fukuda 351]

As for the US....hardly comes close to Europe to be frank. quote>

I don't like where this thread is going...

[Z77 3]

ok...well i can see that this is already an anti american/ anti europe thread......

Personally. im american. i know what happens in our country and i love my country. we all know what happened in WW2 and how it ended. and everyone has a different side and a different reasoning for what happened and all that. BUT, we all can agree BOTH AMERICAN AND EUROPEAN (geez actually everyone in the world) that even though it was horrible, we all have learned from it, and we have built ourselves back. EVERYONE DID. Europe managed to rebuild and revive itself to its current economic state, which is one of the best in the world. they have one of the best unions of nations and are a model for countries around the world. and the US ended up helping the world drive its economies after the war( even though its hurting us now......but we'll get through it) even inside the US, economies grew, and even our entire transportation grid was based off a german war plan(now called the autobahn ;P ) that Hitler designed. so saying that this date is irrelevant or overlooked in the US isn't entirely true. its in the newspapers,even if its on page E17 instead of A1. its just it wasn't a major date in AMERICAN history so its not glorified over here.

SO PLEASE, as a fellow citizen of simtropolis, please think about the facts and truths, and think about both sides, because neither side is better than the other. each has flaws in their government and way of life. i love both Europe and America and i think that the 70 year mark should be celebrated (in fact i was kinda surprised not hearing about any holidays in Britain) and lets all thank and remember our soldiers and veterans who risked their lives and even gave their lives defending not "freedom" or whats right, but what they believed in, because that is the best anyone could ever do for their country

[your_adress_here 11]

I like to believe that life is better in Québec than anywhere else in the world.

[Muck308 55]

Originally posted by: Z77

...we all have learned from it, and we have built ourselves back... quote>

After the war was over, yes... everyone learned from it. Trouble is that here in America nobody seems to care anymore. As was mentioned, Americans aren't too big on history ( just ask a random American what they can tell you about our Civil War.) Also, the fact that most of the fighting was done far from our soil is to blame for American ignorance. Growing up in Pittsburgh in the cold war era was not at all like growing up in Berlin... or all of Europe for that matter. It was so easy (but still inexcusable) for American memory of the war's significance to fade.

These are simply my observations as an American. Most of us know nothing of WWII. I don't know why that is... laziness I guess. One of my favorite movies when I was young was Empire of the Sun. I had an interest in WWII history when I was nine years old, and it didn't even really all come together for me until I took American history in high school. ( I was also born on June 6th... so I knew the significance of that date long before most people my age did.) But when I was young it was simply an idea of We (the good guys) beat Them (the bad guys). As I grew older, I learned the whys and hows... but many others did not. They held onto the idea of Us and Them, which is why you have Americans sneering at anyone who "looks like a terrorist" these days. But should I blame the racist on the corner for the way the world is? Should I blame his parents for raising him that way? Should I... not blame anyone at all and just try to do the best I can? I think the latter.

All I can say is the Nazis had to be stopped, but it wasn't just a random occurence that such a force came out of Germany. They were a little rattled by WWI and were toatlly pissed off. Perfectly understandable... but just the kind of situation that can put a dangerous man in lead of a nation.

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

The thing is, that we need to remember, otherwise it will happen again. If it happens again the world will likely be destroyed.

[sneakeypete 16]

I find it strange that most people here seem to be forgetting the cold war (you know, europe half divided for over 3 decades...). It didn't become all pretty and rosy right after the war finished. Infact it had quite the opposite effect. I'd argue that the current level of peace in europe is as much due to WW2 as it's due to all historical events that ever happened.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 1, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[sneakeypete 16]

That's true. It was over by the time i was born. I just don't think its safe to say "oh, we had a world war and learnt out lesson, we're good now", becuase, after the war, things got rather bad (going by what ive heard of the cold war, of course) before they started getting good again.

[Merlin of Flyote 8]

"Things got rather bad" a bit of an understatement to say the least. President Kennedy threatened to press the Nuclear button. "Goodbye World".