Federal Cigarette Tax Increase

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Jezus53

. . . why should you or I have to pay for it? I know it's a bad way of looking at things, but that's how some people are. Call us sick, call us uncaring, that will not change our minds. We are who we are. . . quote>

I do realize this. I was taught as a child that living a decent life required having compassion for our fellow human beings. I do understand that not everyone shares this value.

(btw, hym, there is the connection. I am making the leap from "Call us sick, call us uncaring" to calling it a disregard for human life and human suffering.)

Originally posted by: Duke87

1) With charity, personal choice is maintained. I can choose how much to give and what to give it to. With government-sponsored programs, I have no choice, both those decisions are made for me. That is needlessly infringing on my freedom. quote>

I remember wishing that our tax forms included a section for how the money was to be spent. It wouldn't have to be difficult: List a dozen or so basic categories and allow each taxpayer to allocate a certain percentage to each category. In some cases, the percentage will be zero.

Thinking about it, I realized there would be problems with that system. Many people are very short sighted and can not see -- or do not want to deal with -- a problem until it is literally crashing down around them.

I have no desire to drive over a bridge that is likely to collapse at any moment because people didn't see the need for highway maintenance. Nor do I wish to give up the success that Maryland schools are currently enjoying because some people don't think education is important.

I do have issues with the concept that Person A has to suffer because Persons B, C, and D are short sighted and do not have an understanding of the big picture.

. . . So, rather than being on welfare being a motivation to try and get off of welare, it instead turned out to be an enabler for people to continue being unproductive and just continue living off those welfare checks. quote>

I agree that this certainly is a problem. I believe firmly that the world does not owe anyone a living. The current system does perpetuate that notion. I agree that it needs to be changed.

The other issue, of course, is that people don't understand the economics of it. They take it for granted that they get a check in the mail, they never stop to think where it came from. For all they care, their fairy godmother might as well have waved her wand and made it appear out of thin air. But that's not the case. Someone had to work to earn that money, only to have it taxed away from them to give not only to truly unfortunate people who need it, but also to lazy good-for-nothing bastards who are perfectly happy leeching off the system as opposed to actually getting up off their asses and working to earn a living. I believe it was Maragret Thatcher who said, "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." quote>

I've always thought that the problem with socialism is that it takes away the incentive to work and try to better your life. Why should anyone work more or work harder but not reap any of the benefits of that because the benefits are all going to the bum down the street? It would eventually lead to society sinking to the lowest common denominator.

That said, I do believe that the American health care system need to change. I know a woman who busts her butt working 30 hours a week at job A and 30 hours a week at job B. She is not lazy, she is not a free loader. She is out there working 60 hours a week. But she does not have health care. Neither of her jobs offer it to her, nor do they pay her enough to get it on her own. It seems to me that there needs to be a way for hard working people to obtain health care.

Originally posted by: Zelgadis

This is interesting... A lot of what I see here kinda ignores the fact that, long term, smokers are less of a burden on the health care system than those who live an extra 10 to 20 years and suffer old age issues. quote>

You have an excellent point. Old age issues, to put it bluntly, suck. It does reach a point where there is little that can be done to improve the quality of life. and, yet, life goes on.

So, in a nationalized health care system, smokers save you money. A nasty little fact governments don't mention because it would mess up their perfectly oiled cigarette tax raising machine by taking away one of their favorite arguments.quote>

I don't know how much of it is related to the tax raising machine and how much is related to the fact that is is cheaper to care for a dying emphysema patient than to care for a physically stable alzheimers patient.

It's been said that the only way to fix social security and health care in the USA is to screw over one generation and set things up for the following generations. That may well be true. and I can tell you it will be the Baby Boomers who get screwed over. There are simply far too many of us. There are simply not enough resources to provide all of us with the same level of care that I see my parents' generation getting. It just isn't going to happen.

So, yeah, if a bunch of us get killed off by smoking, it will be easier on everyone.

[hym 358]

(btw, hym, there is the connection. I am making the leap from "Call us sick, call us uncaring" to calling it a disregard for human life and human suffering.)quote>

I can see how that can be considered having no regard for human life or human suffering.

However, refusing to be responsible for fixing the mistakes of someone who knew what the consequences would be is, imho, not cold-hearted or lacking regard for a person's humanity. It's an acknowledgment of where responsibility lies. A person who says "I am not responsible for your mistakes, and I refuse to be held responsible for your mistakes" is not saying "I refuse to help."

[Meg 368]

There is the issue of common human decency. which turns out to be not all that common.

and, another take on it, there is the way I learned to sing it when I was a kid: "Whatever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me".

I guess they don't sing that song much anymore.

[fukuda 351]

So, yeah, if a bunch of us get killed off by smoking, it will be easier on everyone.quote>

It won't be easier for their families, really...

They take it for granted that they get a check in the mail, they never stop to think where it came from.quote>

Wait, what? Checks in the mail? That's crazy! In Europe, for instance, you don't receive free cash to waste in anything you want...

You'll never see or touch the money, you just use the cards to access public healthcare and to get price reductions on meds, depending on your income and health state... There's no way you can waste the money you don't even own to begin with in anything else. And I don't see how it takes away any incentive from working, it doesn't pay your food or housing...

Sending checks is like the worst system ever.....

[Jezus53 18]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: Jezus53

. . . why should you or I have to pay for it? I know it's a bad way of looking at things, but that's how some people are. Call us sick, call us uncaring, that will not change our minds. We are who we are. . .

quote>

If I may ask you a personal question . . . Why did you chose the username that you did?

quote>

I chose that name because I was given it my freshmen year in highscool (minus the 53). Since I had long hair and a beard people would always say I looked just like Jesus (even though they believe he had short hair and was clean shaven but that was beside the point). So I picked up the name. It's been my user name every from gaming sites to other forums. Heck, I even got two of my teachers to call me Jezus. I spelt it with a z though. I didn't to be too much of a blasphemer. And the 53 came from my football number in my sophmore year. Thus the creation of "Jezus53." I love it and four years later I still love it. There is no religious affiliation if that's what you are trying to get at.

Wait, what? Checks in the mail? You don't receive free cash to waste in anything you want...

You'll never see or touch the money, you just use the cards to access public healthcare and to get price reductions on meds, depending on your income and health state... There's no way you can waste the money you don't even own to begin with in anything else. And I don't see how it takes away any incentive from working, it doesn't pay your food or housing...

quote>

That is an excellent idea, using a card, but America doesn't have that (at least not any where around me). We are too cheap to set up a card system. I would love to have that since the government would be able to track their spending and see if they are spending responsibly. Now others are probably against that and I'll have a bunch of people jumping all over me arguing personal privacy infringement issues and whatnot. Reply storm in 3...2...1...

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Jezus53

. And the 53 came from my football number in my sophmore year. Thus the creation of "Jezus53." I love it and four years later I still love it. There is no religious affiliation if that's what you are trying to get at.quote>

I was wondering. Thanks for the clarification.

[Jezus53 18]

Originally posted by: SkiGeek

Originally posted by: Jezus53

. And the 53 came from my football number in my sophmore year. Thus the creation of "Jezus53." I love it and four years later I still love it. There is no religious affiliation if that's what you are trying to get at.quote>

I was wondering. Thanks for the clarification.

quote>

No problem.

[ShortStraw 1]

Originally posted by: Jezus53

That is an excellent idea, using a card, but America doesn't have that (at least not any where around me). We are too cheap to set up a card system. I would love to have that since the government would be able to track their spending and see if they are spending responsibly. Now others are probably against that and I'll have a bunch of people jumping all over me arguing personal privacy infringement issues and whatnot. Reply storm in 3...2...1...

quote>

We have a card system in place for distributing Food Stamp and Unemployment benefits. I suspect that if the government took over the health care industry they would implement a fairly snazzy card program.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: fukuda

So, yeah, if a bunch of us get killed off by smoking, it will be easier on everyone.quote>

It won't be easier for their families, really... quote>

I had to think about that one for a while. Emphysema and lung cancer lead to a long, slow death and I would not wish that on anyone.

Problem is, there are conditions that lead to a longer, slower death. It can be agonizing to watch a loved one die a little bit at a time.

Comparatively speaking, dying from smoking-related illnesses can be easier.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus

The problem preventing them from getting the pills themselves is medical inflation. If that can be stopped, possibly using some form of price controls, then they can pay for it themselves, instead of the government. quote>

Price ceilings are a bad idea, period. Economically speaking, it's best to just let the market equilibrium be reached.

Besides, if other countries that put caps on the price of drugs removed them, you'd probably see prices in the US drop some - since part of the reason they're so high here is to compensate for the fact that they're being perpetually sold at below market value elsewhere.

And, in some cases, the profit margin on the drugs sold at capped prices is so thin that if they couldn't be sold at such a high price here, they wouln't be getting sold at all since it wouldn't be commercially viable. If it costs you $39.95 to make something and you can't sell it for more than $40.00, are you really going to bother? Probaby not. Especially since that $39.95 that it costs to make it could become $40.05 in the blink of an eye with variations in the cost of materials and labor, and now you're selling it at a loss.

So, if the US ever puts a price cap on prescription meds, some of them will cease being made because of it. And expensive drugs are better than no drugs.

[LarksTonguesInAspic 28]

Originally posted by: ShortStraw

We have a card system in place for distributing Food Stamp and Unemployment benefits. I suspect that if the government took over the health care industry they would implement a fairly snazzy card program.

quote>

And they're using the system to rip off those receiving benefits. Withdrawal fees, inquiry fees, even a fee to complain about the fees (literally, calling the complaint line will cost you). It's gotten nearly criminal.

[Aontan 0]

Speaking of smoking bans:

Fifth anniversary of smoking ban marked

Sun, Mar 29, 2009

Compliance with the workplace smoking ban has never dropped below 94 per cent since its inception five years ago, the Office of Tobacco Control (OTC) said today.

The ban was introduced on March 29th, 2004.

OTC chief executive Éamonn Rossi said the implementation of the legislation had been highly successful. Figures for 2008 show compliance with the ban at 97 per cent.

“We are pleased with how workplaces and the public have supported the measure. The introduction of the legislation can without doubt be called a success and we must now carry that success forward and continue to be a world leader in tobacco control,” Mr Rossi said.

The Mandate trade union, which represents bar and retail workers, said the ban was a success and would continue to receive strong support from its members.

A ban on the advertising of tobacco products in retail outlets will be introduced on July 1st.

The National Youth Council of Ireland (NYCI) said three-quarters of all smokers in Ireland pick up the habit before they reach the age of 18 and there was overwhelming support from the public for the new rules on tobacco advertising.

NYCI director Mary Cunningham said 80 per cent of children who smoke in Ireland buy just two brands. “These brands happen to be the two most heavily marketed through the use of in-store displays,” she said.

Ireland became the first country in the world to introduce a workplace ban in 2004. Since then, other countries which have followed the lead include Scotland, England, Northern Ireland, Wales, Norway, New Zealand, Puerto Rico, Uruguay and Bhutan.

© 2009 irishtimes.com

quote>

[roman19655 0]

isn't this the wrong time for congress to putting taxes on people won't this take millions of dollars a week out of the economy especially when 100 thousands of jobs or being lost each week I don't smoke and I can see who this could affect me and possibally my job what is congress thinking if one out of every 5 people smoke over 18 probally more this is millions of dollars be taken out of our economy every week what is obama thinking of another 30000 jobs a week being lost and I can't believe states like kentucky raising there cigarette taxes so much why so they can get a pay raises do any of these politicians want to be elected again this is not the time to raise taxes I imagine alcohol tax will go up next it has already has any many state we don't need new taxes that will eliminate jobs