American Politics

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[astronelson 339]

Clicking "last" got me here, so maybe it was just one of those odd things that happen occasionally.

Assuming we all saw the State of the Union address is not really sound - I'm all the way over in Australia and didn't watch it. For the benefit of those in a similar position to mine, here it is. With nice graphics too!

[Larks2242 251]

I love how John Boehner was visually unimpressed the whole time

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

So, I took the time to watch it.  Thanks, astro.

The Repubnicans had better toe the line after that speech or Obama will hang them out to dry.  He made a big point of bi-partisan co-operation all the way through, so they want to be careful or they will indeed be hoist on their own petard.

When he was talking about the don't ask/don't tell repeal, the JCS looked like they had been hit with both ends of the salmon.

If I was a bureaucrab in one of the agencies that has any counterpart in the government, I think I would be updating my CV.

[iuri99 48]

What is PFB ?

[Larks2242 251]

Originally posted by: iuri99

What is PFB ?

quote>

PFB is an acronym, that stands for Page Flip Bug, its basically a glich in the fourm that happens when someone makes a post on the next page but it doesn't show up till 5 other people post. It can also happen in reverse when there is a blank page as the last page with no posts.

Hope that explains it,

Larks

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Tsk, tsk.  Politicians have to look before they leap, eh?  Seems the Republicans are facing an internal revolt when trying to cut out some sacred cows.  More tea?

While the EPA may be somewhat featherbedded, it is necessary to tread softly here.  And taking a whack at high speed rail?  Haven't these guys figured out that it is TVA time again?

[Duke87 1,070]

There is currently a push to slice and dice budgets, often without particular regard to the consequences of the cuts. Austerity is absolutely a virtue, and deficit spending has to stop... but the problem is that the effort to do something about it is both political and partisan rather than practical. It's one-sidedly right wing, so of course they're going to go after all the favorite pet projects of the left while not touching their own. Which is no way to go about things. How about instead of cutting $1 billion by ditching the high speed rail initiative, we cut $7.8 billion by abolishing the TSA? Didn't think so.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

TSA?  Too much alphabet soup.  Define this one please.

As for budget cuts, start with collecting all the taxes from corporations that haven't paid up.  Then start thinking about that old adage that "Charity begins at home." and stop all the foreign adventures and cut out foreign aid, especially without transparent accounting.

The IRS is good at terrorizing the little guys, so they shouldn't have any problems with the big boys either.  After a plant seizure our two, the rest should get the message.  Grabbing a big plant doesn't mean you have to close it and cause a lot of unemployment, just take over the cash flow.

[iuri99 48]

 

PFB is an acronym, that stands for Page Flip Bug, its basically a glich in the fourm that happens when someone makes a post on the next page but it doesn't show up till 5 other people post. It can also happen in reverse when there is a blank page as the last page with no posts.

Hope that explains it,

Larks

quote>

I get it now , Thanks ;]          

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

When I read things like this, I only reinforces my complete disdain for the Right.  I'm mean seriously... what kind of moron thinks that doing away with the EPA (a non-commercial, governmental, environmental monitoring department) and replacing it with one that focuses on business needs and the privatization of national, natural resources is good for the country?  And he expects to run in 2012?  Gingrich should build a time machine since he should be running in 1912, or better yet, 1812.

Barbarossa

quote>

Good to see people who care about it.

Stupid people like him not see how the Environment affect economy and life quality in long effect (not so long).

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Originally posted by: Barbarossa

When I read things like this, I only reinforces my complete disdain for the Right.  I'm mean seriously... what kind of moron thinks that doing away with the EPA (a non-commercial, governmental, environmental monitoring department) and replacing it with one that focuses on business needs and the privatization of national, natural resources is good for the country?  And he expects to run in 2012?  Gingrich should build a time machine since he should be running in 1912, or better yet, 1812.

Barbarossa

quote>

Remember Barry Goldwater?  This newt is cut from the same cloth.  Right-wing politicians have always given me an extreme attack of dyspepsia.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: A Nonny Moose

TSA?  Too much alphabet soup.  Define this one please.quote>

Transportation Security Administration. You know, the guys giving people "enhanced pat-downs" at the airport?

They weren't necessary before 9/11, they are no more necessary after.

As for budget cuts, start with collecting all the taxes from corporations that haven't paid up.quote>

Wait, what?

Explain, por favor.

[hym 358]

Originally posted by: A Nonny Moose

The IRS is good at terrorizing the little guys, so they shouldn't have any problems with the big boys either.quote>

The IRS is good at terrorizing the "little guys" because the little guys lack both knowledge and resources to fight back.  This is not the case with the "big boys."  They have dedicated legal teams and they are well aware of what US tax law says they can and cannot do, so with the exception of the few that are engaging in outright fraud, you can be sure that the rest of them can fight the IRS should it ever come knocking and very likely win.

After a plant seizure our two, the rest should get the message.quote>

Property seizure works against the small players because again, they lack knowledge and/or power.  Major corporations are not in this situation, and in the event that the federal government attempts to take them over in any way, they will treat it as an act of open warfare against the company and they will fight it with everything they have at their disposal.  The Exxon oil spill is a prime example of how a company can drag things out for decades if the executive leadership feels it is necessary.

This doesn't even begin to address the negative impact such a move would have on the private sector's relationship with the government.  Aside from earning the eternal hatred of the company the government attempted to take over, the rest of the business world would take it a sign of government hosility towards the private sector.  Any time that there is widespread opinion in the private sector that the government is their enemy, it has a very chilling effect on the economy.

Grabbing a big plant doesn't mean you have to close it and cause a lot of unemployment, just take over the cash flow.quote>

There is no practical way to make this happen as manufacturing facilities don't have cash flow.  If the IRS seizes a manufacturing facility, it isn't seizing a business; it's seizing property.  That property is worthless to the business once it no longer owns it, so the business has no incentive to keep those employees on the payroll, and the IRS can't just add them to its payroll.  The employees suddenly have no value to either the IRS or the company, and in the real world, no one pays a person when they have nothing of value to offer in return.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

True, hym, but my points did get the discussion started.  If corporations are able to avoid taxes through the use of exceptions in the law, isn't it time to review all this, and close the loop holes?  A good corporate citizen doesn't avoid paying his share of the freight.

On the other hand, there should be a minimum tariff because all the feather bedding in the government has been reduced.  Fat cats breed fat cats and temptation is always present, eh?

Good organizations should not leave themselves open to attacks such as some GOP members feel they can get away with.  An open hand is one thing, but pork barrels are something any good government should avoid.  One of the great temptaions, often yielded to in local governments especially, is nepotism.  The mayor's wife's third cousin, twice removed, shouldn't get appointed as dog catcher, especially if he is allergic to dogs.

We had an example of this kind of thing in Walkerville, Ontario a few years ago where a relative was put in charge of the water works, even though he had no training for it.  The result was e-coli poisoning and several deaths in the town.  However, an evil wind often blows some good.  The province's environmental safety and water works training school is now in Walkerville.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/20/sunday/main20034127.shtml

To quote Marie Antoinette: "Qu'Ils mangeant des brioches".  (Loosely translated as "Let them eat cake".)

The real issue is whether strikes in the public service are different from industrial strikes.  When you say to a union "We have no more money" what you usually get is a strike vote rather than concern and constructive suggestions.  The time for this kind of confrontation has clearly come to an end.  Governments are not money trees and they have no moolah command.  The only way they can satisfy the union mentality of more, more, more is by raising taxes which will just cause another round of the positive feedback loop.  All such things break the machine.

Strikes in the public service hold the entire population to ransom and are equivalent to kidnapping.  This includes teachers because if the kids are not in school, someone has to stay home and look after them, which takes mom or dad off the job.  It is a line-up of dominoes.

[Duke87 1,070]

The root of this problem is that there was a trend in the 70's where public unions got really loud in demanding higher pay and better benefits. Governments didn't have the money then any more than they do now, and they couldn't raise taxes, so instead what they did was make promises on pension plans that were unreasonable and figure "eh, that bill won't come due until later, and by then it'll be someone else's problem". Well, now it's later, and the someone else is us.

And since, naturally, no one likes having the teat pulled from their mouth, now when you start saying "sorry, we're broke", it creates unrest.

It really is ridiculous, the expectations some people have come to have, and how entitled some people have come to feel. This comment in particular pisses me off:

"I am a seasoned teacher," she said. "And I feel like without our union I am out of a job."quote>

Lady, I've got news for you: if the teacher's union is the only reason you still have a job, then you shouldn't still have a job. Either you aren't doing your job properly or you are unnecessary. So, go retire or find another job and quit wasting the taxpayers' money. Just because you've been teaching at your school for so many years does not mean that you have some sort of right to continue to do so.

As for the democratic senators leaving the state to prevent a vote from happening... eh, it may seem like quite a splash made on the surface, but really, when you think about it, it's basically just a fancy filibuster. So, no big deal, just the usual political theatrics.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"I am a seasoned teacher," she said. "And I feel like without our union I am out of a job."</end quote></div>

If she is being protected by some spurious entitlement in the union contract, it is time to examine her record. Maybe they can get her for cause, like a low pass rate or a general failure rate of students who have passed through here sticky fingers.

The idea of entitlements is not enshrined in anyone's constitution, except maybe the Italian one. The truth of previous prevarications is now patent. {Oooh! I just couldn't resist the alliteration, there.} People are asking for more from the people. Isn't that a contradiction? If one gets more, why not everyone? From where? Money isn't created by a printing press. Printing presses only increase inflations. Only production produces money.

[Easy Bakes 253]

But dont you think taking away the right to collectivly bargin

is swinging it too far the other way? take that away and they can hire and fire based totaly

on money. you will see experienced teachers/workers being replaced rather then give them

deserved pay increases to save money.

how would you like to be being paid the same rate after 10 years on the job?

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

But dont you think taking away the right to collectivly bargin

is swinging it too far the other way? take that away and they can hire and fire based totaly

on money. you will see experienced teachers/workers being replaced rather then give them

deserved pay increases to save money.

how would you like to be being paid the same rate after 10 years on the job?

Collective bargaining is fine, but the right to strike is not when the entire populace can be held to ransom by a few hot heads or unreasonable union leaders. Instead of union busting, they need to be reformed by replacing the right to strike with binding arbitration. In a proper arbitration, after all other avenues have been exhausted at the bargaining table, a disinterested third party (arbitrator) is appointed to settle the issues, with luck, equitably. In severe cases, the arbitrator may be a panel or a court.

Entitlements such as you quoted are not a right. The new expression for unions should be "If you always do as you've always done, you may not get what you've always got." The time for union/employer adversarial situations is past. The unions have bled the economy white, and it is time they got on side.

[Duke87 1,070]

The problem with binding arbitration is that there is no such thing as a third party which is truly disinterested, and there is no guarantee that they will rule reasonably.

Example: the MTA in New York was, in a 2009 binding arbitration agreement with the Transit Workers' Union, forced to give the workers raises over the following three years, despite the fact that the economy had just tanked and they were already looking at a budget shortfall.

It's all a matter of politics. In New York, the prevailing attitude is pro-worker and anti-management (class warfare and all that), so guess who the arbiters tend to side with.

[Barbarossa 51]

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  Edited September 8, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[Easy Bakes 253]

Didn't he actually send state police to arrest the protesting senators?

What a nut.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

The problem with binding arbitration is that there is no such thing as a third party which is truly disinterested, and there is no guarantee that they will rule reasonably.

You pays yer money and you takes yer cherce, as the man said. It all comes down to that old set of Roman aphorisms:

Cui bono? (Who benefits? or follow the money)

Cui ipsos custodes custodiet? (Who will watch the watchers?)

Caveat emptor. (Let the buyer beware).

Binding arbitration is the final resort in a labor dispute. If you outlaw strikes in the public sector, it eliminates public unrest. Recalling this guy won't balance the state budget nor find more money for the greedy unions. It is too late to beat'em, so now, perforce, you have to join'em.

As for the teachers, let quality determine who stays employed, not seniority. As a retired post-secondary educator, I say most of them can't grab their fundament with both hands. The students I used to get from their hands were generally illiterate and unprepared for post-secondary work. Featherbedding for unions these days of shortages is out. And by the way, I've only been retired since 2002, and not voluntarily, but by the terms of a union contract.

[Easy Bakes 253]

As for the teachers, let quality determine who stays employed, not seniority. As a retired post-secondary educator, I say most of them can't grab their fundament with both hands. The students I used to get from their hands were generally illiterate and unprepared for post-secondary work. Featherbedding for unions these days of shortages is out. And by the way, I've only been retired since 2002, and not voluntarily, but by the terms of a union contract.

Who determines quality?

The School board? the state? each school? students test results?

[Danlikebooks 6]

Who determines quality?

The School board? the state? each school? students test results?

I've always thought that teacher quality should come from a mixture of student performance, as well as parent, administrator, and other teacher reviews done every semester or maybe even every school quarter. No one has a definite authority on what is quality or not, so all sides should be taken into consideration.

On the topic of teacher pay, I've always been a proponent of higher teacher pay. Just think, so many better, smarter people would go into the teaching profession if it simply paid more. Instead, the best and the brightest are lured away to work in industry, or to teach at the college level. We need these people teaching even more of our students to be bright and analytical thinkers. Teachers' pay these days is terrible in relation to what the teachers are tasked with doing. Average starting salary for a teacher in America (after going through four or six year college programs) is $35,000 per year, with a maximum salary of $65,000 per year. That's pitiful compared to what the brightest adults could be making in the business world, or as a researcher or doctor.

Perhaps raise teachers' starting salaries to a more appropriate wage, and eliminate congress' and the president's salaries to make up for the difference? But who listens to me anyways...

  Edited March 3, 2011 by Danlikebooks  

[astronelson 339]

Perhaps raise teachers' starting salaries to a more appropriate wage, and eliminate congress' and the president's salaries to make up for the difference? But who listens to me anyways...

I support raising teachers' salaries, but eliminating Congress' and the President's salaries would tend to then purely attract those who can afford to live for however long they need to without an income... moreso, at least. It costs quite a lot to run an election campaign over there. In any case, eliminating the wages for all members of Congress, the President, and the Vice President would save you about $94 million per year. Spread over the 3.8 million teachers in the US, that comes out to under $25 a year extra. You're going to need to find some other way to make up the difference.

You could raise taxes on those who can afford it, but that tends to be quite unpopular, even with people who haven't had their tax rate changed.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Who determines quality?

The School board? the state? each school? students test results?

As a retired post-secondary teacher, the quality is determined by the number of students who have to take make up courses after admission to a post-secondary institution. In the bad (good?) old days, there were department of education examinations at various levels, but these were eliminated largely due to the objection of the unionized teachers who didn't feel they should be measured in this way.

Now, the post-secondary institutiions conduct a set of qualification examinations to determine who has to take bone-head English, Science and Math courses. For example, when I was working on staff at the University of Waterloo in the 1980 time frame, students in sciences were required to take Chemistry 145. But they were allowed to sit the final on the first day of class. Anyone who passed it, got a credit in the course, but if you failed you had to take it. It was prerequisite to all other science courses. Mostly it taught lab procedures and basic high-school chemistry and physics. Other classes could be taken in parallel.

The problem with post-admission placement tests of this type is that you can't get your hands on the teachers responsible for this travesty. I have had students in my classes that were functionally illiterate, and unable to do simple math and logic. If you ask them to write a paper you get a blank stare of abject fright. It takes up too much time getting them over this hurdle to the detriment of the rest of the class. In college you don't have time for coddling.

[Easy Bakes 253]

As a retired post-secondary teacher, the quality is determined by the number of students who have to take make up courses after admission to a post-secondary institution. In the bad (good?) old days, there were department of education examinations at various levels, but these were eliminated largely due to the objection of the unionized teachers who didn't feel they should be measured in this way.

Now, the post-secondary institutiions conduct a set of qualification examinations to determine who has to take bone-head English, Science and Math courses. For example, when I was working on staff at the University of Waterloo in the 1980 time frame, students in sciences were required to take Chemistry 145. But they were allowed to sit the final on the first day of class. Anyone who passed it, got a credit in the course, but if you failed you had to take it. It was prerequisite to all other science courses. Mostly it taught lab procedures and basic high-school chemistry and physics. Other classes could be taken in parallel.

The problem with post-admission placement tests of this type is that you can't get your hands on the teachers responsible for this travesty. I have had students in my classes that were functionally illiterate, and unable to do simple math and logic. If you ask them to write a paper you get a blank stare of abject fright. It takes up too much time getting them over this hurdle to the detriment of the rest of the class. In college you don't have time for coddling.

Mabey someof the younger peoples can answer this.

Do the Universitys still make students pass entrance exams?

or are those bypassed by state test scores that did not exist in 83.

I do remeber it being in place for me in 1985.Although i did already take a lot of community college courses

after hearing the horror stories of freshman level basic classes{ english , math] taking place with 400 kids /per class to weed out

the partiers and those who didnt learn to study in High School.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

When I was teaching at Georgian College just before I retired in 2002, placement tests were still run for new admissions from the Ontario secondary school system and others whose accreditation was in question. The one semester courses were critical to staying in school and you could only take arts courses until you completed them. Failure resulted in out of school.

In Ontario, at least, department of education examinations were discontinued in 1956, the year after I graduated from high school. I was required to write ten departmental exams in order to be eligible for university entrance.

I think the schools concentrate on "social graces" more these days than on academic excellence. This has dumbed down our society. If you cater to the average, that's what you'll get. Many brilliant kids drop out now, because they are not challenged. The criminals are getting smarter. Guess why?

  Edited March 4, 2011 by A Nonny Moose