Ideal entry cost for mass transit stops

[0rion79 1]

Today I'm full of questions

Lately, I'm editing the plug-ins that I've downlaoded to better fit my city needs, withot cheating (greater capacity, more expensive).

Especially, I would like to know how 2 things:

if the grandrail station has a capacity of 10.000 passengers x 300 $  and the basic train station has 2000 P x 20 $, what is a fair price for 4.000, 8.000, 12.000, 25.000 and 30.000 stations, in your hopinion?

And this is the main question of this topic. I've seen that many commuters are walking inside MT stations just to reach another destination, eg through a train station to reach a buss station or a commercial/industrial building. I think that it is caused by a too low entry cost, that makes these mass transit stations cheaper than using the car or other mass transit lines to reach the true destination. As reslult, they get congested even if passengers do not really use them.

Now I'm trying to put my mass transit stations with a score of 0,1.

What do you think about?

[TV-VCR 15]

To be honest it depends more on how much you think it should cost. What is the quality of the station (i.e. something you would see in the slums, in contrast to something like Waterloo Station)? What does the station look like? You'd have to sum up many factors.

And with your second question, you have stations in front of businesses and industry, and people are walking through the stations to get to those buildings behind them, correct? Sorry if I'm wrong, I'm rather sleepy at the time of posting this.

Chris (zzz).

[0rion79 1]

Well, all the stations look quite well: there are no "ugly" stations but all of them would fit into a $$ or $$$ area. Honestly I think that is very unfair to make a 30.000 passengers station with a budget cost of 20 as I've seen in some MOD! If I have to add a greater price, then I want to add even a "plaza" effect to these buildings. Else it would be very unfair. Does the grandrail station has any landmark effect?

About my second question, yes. but not only. Very often, it is more like:

Residents walk from home to a mass transit station, then enter it and, instead than going up to a bus, subway or train, simply walk to the other side of it and reach another mass transit station (usually a small bus and/or subway) station OR an industrial or commercial building, where that Sim works.

In short, sims use large mass transit stations as shortcuts to reach their destionation, since walking inside them has a smaller cost in time than walking around them.

[z1 566]

For the second part of your question, the answer is simple.  The Transit Switch Entry Cost should be the inverse of the speed of the mass transit type that goes through the station.  For example, if you have an elevated station with a train speed of 100 kph, your Transit Switch Entry Cost should be .01.  If the mass transit station is not a TE lot (i.e., the transit type doesn't actually go through the station), you use the speed of the fastest travel type that goes through the station.  In your case, it would be pedestrians, who generally have a speed of 5 kph, so the correct Transit Switch Entry Cost would be .2.

Note that in the former case, the pedestrians will still use the station as a shortcut.  This is unavoidable, because making the Transit Switch Entry Cost higher slows down the trains by an unacceptable amount.  There is another way to fix this, which is to allow pedestrians entry and exit from only one direction.  This makes it impossible to use the station as a shortcut.

[0rion79 1]

Z, is it you? great... anyway, it is all too complicated. I like SC4 a lot but I'm getting tired of modding and so! I've seen that almost all my train stations had a commute time of 0. Now I've increased ot to 0.1 and MAYBE things are going lightly better. I have even seen, using SC4 tools, that I can choose from where Sims and/or trains will enter or exit, but I really don't know how to change this because I don't know what the AI guess that is North or South!!! For me, it would be more logic that passengers could enter only from one side...

Ah, I have another question. I'm using different train stations for different mass transit needs. I'm using 2 downloaded and unusual lots: Stazione Centrale di Milano (central station) and Suburban train station (10.000, same size of Grandrail and subway link under it).

It is very strange because with the first one I have sims going OUT by car from it!!!

But the most strange thing happens with the other one. It gets over-used almost immediately in mid-high density cities BUT, if I replace it with something bigger, I have a much less usage. Maybe, it drops from 35.000 passengers to 10.000. I have thought about the subway, but I have placed a bus/subway RTMT stop in front of the bigger ones and still sims like the first one more.

Any idea? Thank you!

[Mistagnerd 0]

I would calculate cost in conjuction with the amount of passengers. For example you have a basic station with 2,000 passenger capacity and a Larger station with 10,000 passenger capacity. The smaller costing 20 simoleons a month and the larger costing 300. It will be easiest to calculate cost per passenger capacity in terms of thousands. You would first begin by subtracting the cost of the smaller from the larger. Which equals 280, then divide by 8 (being the difference in thousands of 10,000-2,000). You will get 35. Thus telling you that for every thousand you can assume the cost will be 35 simoleons larger than that of the previous/smaller station.

So using this logic you can find that....

2,000 cap. costs $20

3,000 cap. costs $55

4,000 cap. costs $90

...

10,000 cap. costs $300

12,000 cap. costs $370

25,000 cap. costs $825

30,000 cap. costs $1000

that is how I would calc, cost per station capacity.

[0rion79 1]

The problem is that the grandrail station has a landmark effect too, but the effective passenger cost is equal to 80. I have made my check and I have re-adatpted many of my stations accordingly to this. I would still be able to understand which is "north" in buildings so I can prevent commuters from crossing them. I don't want to cut all exits by mistake!

[Mistagnerd 0]

so are you saying that without landmark effect activated for the grand rail station, the cost would be 80? If so how is landmark effect calculated?

[0rion79 1]

I have seen it using SC4tools analyzer. It has a Magnitude = 90 x 40 range, plus Mayor Rating +8 x 256 range. The landmark cost is 220 and cannot be reduced by budget.

[cogeo 960]

The Grand Rail station is a special case, as you have mentioned.

The "standard" maintenance cost (as calculated by Maxis) should be $5/1000 pax for the "slow" types (bus, rail) and $10/1000 pax for the "fast" types (subway, El/GLR, monorail) - sorry, the "basic" rail station has a cost of $10/mo, no $20/mo (for 2000 pax). For stations with through track things are different, some of the capacity should be regarded as extra "allowance" for the through traffic, and no cost should be calculated for this. You should add some extra capacity (and cost) for each through track. The result here cannot be perfect, it's just an approximation. For example, for rail stations (for the "fast" types costs should be doubled):

- 1 through track : 8000 - $10/mo

- 2 through tracks: 16000 - $20/mo

- 3 through tracks: 25000 - $30/mo

or (for high-capacity stations)

- 1 through track : 10000 - $20/mo

- 2 through tracks: 20000 - $40/mo

- 3 through tracks: 30000 - $60/mo (or 25000 - $50/mo)

Ideally you should make different versions for each NAM capacity configuration, but the above values more or less work.

Note: the above suggestions do not apply to terminal stations, like Gare du Nord or St Pancras, as the tracks there are not really "through". These should be modded just like the standard stations ($5/1000pax for rail).

As for the switch entry cost, see z1's suggestions. I would only add that a cost of 0.1 has a significant effect on the station's usage (reduced), and such a value should never be used for stations with through tracks, as it has an effect on the whole track! You may consider using it only for very large terminal or track-side stations.

For stations with through track the maximum value I would recommend is 0.05. It eliminates most "shortcutting" and has some relatively little effect the usage. So the "formula" here could be min( 0.05, StationLength/TrainSpeed ).

For track-side stations the objective is to both prevent shortcutting for both pedestrians and trains (they can be "teleported" from the one side to the other) so the "formula" here could be min( 0.1, StationLength/PassengerSpeed ), but pls remember that a value of 0.1 will have a significant effect on the station usage, so it may be preferable to tolerate some ped shortcutting instead, so the max could be again 0.5. But, if you want to avoid shortcutting for trains at any cost, the formula could become:

max( min(0.5, StationLength/PassengerSpeed), min(0.1, StationLength/TrainSpeed) ). It would be good if someone experiments with long trackside station lots, eg 10x1, this can verify or falsify what I claim.

I don't have any "theory" to support the above, but they are the result of experimentation. Also experiments made by RippleJet have shown that a value of 0.2 causes the stations to be "ignored" by sims (they will prefer to use their cars).

[Mistagnerd 0]

Originally posted by: 0rion79 I have seen it using SC4tools analyzer. It has a Magnitude = 90 x 40 range, plus Mayor Rating +8 x 256 range. The landmark cost is 220 and cannot be reduced by budget.quote>

So is the magnitude a rectangular shape around the GR Station? The 256 range, is that the radius?

[0rion79 1]

Coego, I'm a bit confused after your explanation.

Maxis subway station confirms that Cost = Capacity/100

Maxis passenger rail station instead is Cost = Capacity/200

Then I don't understand what "mo" is. Pax instead is passengers, isn't it?

Then, I don't understand very well this table of yours:

- 1 through track : 10000 - $20/mo

- 2 through tracks: 20000 - $40/mo

- 3 through tracks: 30000 - $60/mo (or 25000 - $50/mo)

So, you mean that every through-station rail adds +10.000 passengers and should cost +$20 to the total rail price?

Or that I have to reduce it? IE, the Simtropolis grandrail station has 3 through tracks and a capacity of 30.000 passengers.

So, Cost = (30.000/200)+60 = 150 + 60 = $210?

I'm happy just to have a more balanced cost for my stations.

So, quoting from Z, assuming that I want to prepare my stations for CAM, where passenger trains will go to 200 km/h, my Transit Switch Entry Cost should be .02. (200kmh / 100) Else, 0.2 (10 times greater) if the station is not transit enabled and only pedestrians may cross it.

Then you say that 0.1 is too high and that the top value that can be used for transit-enabled stations is 0.05 but I think that I prefer to change my lots to have passengers to aboard only from one side (more realistic, see below).

Then you say "So the "formula" here could be min( 0.05, StationLength/TrainSpeed )" but I don't understadn this. Is "min" = minutes? If so, consider a 200 km/h train and a rail station that is 12x6 (more or less the grandrail station). How should it be? Transit cost = (200 / 12)*0,05 = 0,8? I think that I have not understood it right.

One last question. Let's say that I want my Sims to enter a building from only one side. I want this especially for very big buildings that are supposed to have only one entrance, because it is more realistic.

The question is: "how do I understand what is "North" for buildings?"

With SC4 tools it is possible to edit the "outside to inside" and "inside to outside" directions for transit enabled buildings so I guess that I should delete the voice "north, east, west" and leave only "south", for all voices except the ones about freight trains and rails. But how can I know how cardinal points are set? Is a building entrance always facing south?

Thank you!

[cogeo 960]

Orion, sorry for the overuse of abbreviations: mo means month, pax passengers and min(a,b) the minimum of a and b.

For stations with through tracks I have estimated the through traffic for each track to 6000. So a station with one through track and 8000 (total) capacity supposedely has 8000-6000 = 2000 "net" capacity and therefore should cost $10/mo. Similarly if capacity is set to 10000, the net capacity would be 4000, and should cost $20/mo. The grand rail station is a special case (has effects like cap relief) so it isn't a proper example (btw it actually has one, not three through tracks).

There are surely disadvantages to my suggestion: the through traffic may not be really close to 6000, different NAM simulator sets have different capacities, it's really quite impossible to get that traffic levels for stations with two or more through tracks, players may actually connect the station to only one track (bracnhing it just before the station) and finally they may use it as a terminal station (connecting tracks to the one side only)! That is, my suggestion is based on the hypothesis that the through traffic would be some 6000 per each through track, something that may very well not be the actual case, for the reasons I mentioned. So no "perfect" solution can be found here, the best you can hope is a good "approximation" that will work reasonaby in most cases. But some "standards" must be set. I don't claim that my suggestion is the most accurate (you can experiment), just wanted to propose a "methodology".

CAM itself does not (or "should" not) affect the traffic simulator. CAM 2.0 won't include a traffic simulator, and the Cleanitol in the last NAM version actually removes CAM's traffic simulator (you will no longer see those extra-long pedestrian trips). So CAM doesn;t affect trains' speed either.

If the station is 6-tiles long and the train speed 100kph, transit cost would be min(0.05, 6/100) = 0.05 (the value of 0.05 is my suggested upper limit for stations with through track, it still has some slight but noticable effect on usage). And a value of 0.1 can have a significant effect on the station's usage (you can experiment to see if this is really the case).

You can mod your stations so that traffic switchings occur at certain sides of the station lot only. The "South" is the "front" side of the lot (where the lot's arrow points to). If the through track is in the East-West direction, the switchings (incl the through-only, eg freight) can be restricted to the East and West sides only. Otherwise switchings can occur for tracks adjacent to the station lot, at the front or back sides. You can check my Semitransparent Train Stations, Suburban GLR Stations, GLR Stations & Hubs and GHSR Stations to see how I have modded them. There is something that looks like a SC4 bug, the meaning of "North" and "South" may be... flipped, depending on the station's placement! Take a look here (esp, bb2rian's experiment, you will need to login to see the pics). I had to re-mod some of my stations to fix this. So if switches are not "symmetrical", you will have to specify that swithings can occur at the "opposite" side too. For example, for my Suburban GLR Stations, I had originally specified that bus switchings could occur at the "front" side only. But this didn't work in all cases (depending on the station placement), so I had to specify that they should occur at the "back" side too, to cover all cases - players should not lay roads there! Similarly, if you mod a teminal station like Gare du Nord, you would normally specify that train<->ped switchings may occur at the "North" side only (where the tracks are), but because of the above bug you should instead allow them for both North+South sides - players are supposed not to lay tracks at the South (front) side. Not an ideal solution, but otherwise you would have to provide two versions, one for plops in the North-South direction, and on for the East-West direction! You can very well do this for yourself, but for stations to be released it would be a problem, players would either be confused, or ignore this and use it wrongly. You may provide a good documentation, but it comes out that most players don't actually read the readme - it's a game, after all.

The SC4 Tool has a bug, it sets the rep count for the "Transit Switch Traffic Capacity" and "Transit Switch Entry Cost" properties to 1, while it should be 0, as is for all Maxis stations. This causes problems to Mac users (capcaity set to 1/1000, eg for a station with 4000 capacity, Mac users would get just 4). I don't say don't use SC4Tool (it's fine for TE-ing), just remember to fix this using the reader, after you are done with SC4Tool. Transit switchings may be easier to edit in Notepad, paste the whole "Values as Text" box there, and check the "Word Wrap" option, then set the window's width so that you have exactly one swithing per line.

Hope this helps.