Socialism: Pros and Cons

[saltandsauce 0]

in arguement of state supplied public education,

in the Scottish "golden age" of education (the 50s) kids sat an exam at 11 known as the 11plus

if you scored over 60% you passed and could go to a regular secondary school

if you scored over 75% you could go to a regular or a grammar school

this was a way of getting working class kids a lift up since their parents would not be able to afford schooling ever. If you went to a grammar school you could easily get a clerical job

assuming primary school is at the same level in both modern and old fashioned times

old S1 would cover S1&2 in modern times in terms of the amount in the cirriculum

old S2 would be current S3

old S3 would be current S4 and you sat your ordinary grades (this was a pass or fail exam and not everybody sat it)

S5 would easily be enough to leave with after sitting your higher exams and get into university

the state education in Britain allowed people social mobility both upwards and downwards in a time when there was no money

In arguement of capitalist (private fee paying) education

in India there is a big number of private schools who have kids from all backgrounds (due to the reservation policy which requires a percentage to be from lower caste backgrounds)

the poor families will not aeat and bend over backwards to try and meet the subsidised fees for the school because they know their child is getting a good education. even though there may be free state education .Basically the arguement for private education is like "if a man with a cart offers you free food there HAS to be something wrong with it.

you can make your mind up about that

[Patricius Maximus 236]

No, democracy enacts the people's will to elect a government to take decisions for them, according to the campaign proposals they have presented of course, don't forget it. quote>

That is represenative democracy, not democracy in general. I was talking about the basic intent of a democracy, which is to enact the will of the people. Don't forget that either .

I don't know in other places, but I've never been forced to get it. Unless it is vaccination for dangerous diseases, which must be mandated.quote>

Vaccination against some diseases is a good thing. Examples -- polio, more common forms of hepatitis, and chicken pox. I wouldn't say that it has to be mandated, but it is a good thing.

No, this would be like donating money, everyone would donate to what they prefer.quote>

Precisely. Remember, I said "in an ideal system". An ideal system may not work in reality.

I am not proposing that it be enacted.

About education:

The educational system in places such as the US is the same principal as a mixed economy. There are state-funded schools that people can go to for free, but there are also private schools you can go to if you have the money and that is your choice.

I think that this is a good system in general. The only complication is the question of what will be taught and how it will be taught in the state schools.

[DocRorlach 25]

I can easily believe the malpractice insurance stats; the most basic "let's get rich quick" scheme running through all levels of US society seems based on the idea that if it moves, sue it.

However, it does not take away from two things: you will be better off if the government you sponsor with your taxes and deductions makes a serious effort to implement both free, basic health care, and free, basic education. Governments in modern times exist to take care of the nation they've been elected for - regardless of the underlying system. That includes both the nation's position vis-a-vis the world beyond its borders as well as what goes on within its borders, including the folks who put the men and women into government. And that is not just rails and roads and lights. That also includes - because every acion of a government influences it - the quality of life the nation's citizens can achieve. No health? No education? You can live in the best defended country in the world and your life's quality will go down the tube rapidly.

The sade, but true joke used to be that the American dream consists of getting hitched, getting house, getting kid to harvard (or some such) - then work for the rest of your life to pay for these dreams.

Nowadays, all you might be able to afford is the first: getting a house exposes you to the lending market disaster; and getting kids to school must be weighed against thecost of future medical bills - few can do both.

As for those seeking hard numbers: the data is available at various sources, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index), and (http://publications.ssrc.org/ahdr/). The report was not created by some evil "let's get the Americans" organization, but is US made & funded. Of course it isn't accurate across the board: torture numbers long enough and they will tell you anything. But - and this does not just go for the US, but for other countries on that list, too (my own among them): it ought to make you think next time you head for a local or national election: is defense against perceived threats thousands of miles away really more important than what happens in my own house & too my own kids?

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus Finland's education usually starts at age 7, and ends at age 18 or 19. At age 15, the students either go to a vocational or academic school. They then go to either a university or a polytechnic. Also, there are no tuition fees for tertiary education.

This demonstrates that starting school at 4 years of age is not necessary for excellence in Math and Science. Preschool could even have a worsening effect on future education.quote>

School starts at age 7; that does not mean that the Finns don't have pre-schools.

[Patricius Maximus 236]

I didn't state that the Finns do not have preschools.

My statement that preschool could have a worsening effect is mainly speculation and there is not much data one way or the other.

[DocRorlach 25]

Originally posted by: Patricius Maximus I didn't state that the Finns do not have preschools.

My statement that preschool could have a worsening effect is mainly speculation and there is not much data one way or the other.quote>

 

However, you could be right: the land with the most taxing school system, Japan, also once ranked highest in children suicides - and not just errant teenagers but 10-12 year old kids, too.