Capitalism versus Socialism

[raja_indy14 8]

Originally posted by: -Lexus-

I went to a business college. I dropped out because of the people. Most of them where a bunch of greedy materialistic *****s who where in it for the money. Basically, that was why most people went to that sort of college. A chance on a job that pays good and with plenty of opportunity to go upwards on the pay grade. quote>

Yes, I'd say a business college is more likely to attract the sorts of materialistic blood suckers you are talking about, same with Law School or even Medicine (and particularly Dentistry). Although I would also say that many people that go into medicine or nursing do so, in part at least, because they want to help their fellow human beings. At my University a tiny minority of students are enrolled in Business.

Originally posted by: -Lexus-

Of course, you could trust their words blindly and not look at the possible motives behind those words. Of course they would say such a thing. Do you really think they would say that the stuff they deal in is full of risks with the potential to kill the world economy. quote>

I didn't say I trusted their words blindly, but let's just say I would consider them more credible sources of information than your own esteemed self. And I would add that there is such a thing as a psychology to economic bubbles, people begin to act and believe in irrational things when there is an upswing. Humans are notorious for not learning from history, and each time it happens they forget that it will come crashing down (or at least that they may not come out of it the better). To forget that these are people and susceptible to all the usual human failings would be misguided.

Originally posted by: -Lexus-

The fact that they are humans doesnt make them any less responsible for what mess they caused. A mess that could have been prevented.quote>

I actually didn't say that they weren't responsible. I said that to think that they intentionally and in full knowledge brought the global financial system to the brink of destruction would be false.

Originally posted by: -Lexus-

Maybe, but prison or anything else still leaves them to be to dangerous in my opinion.quote>

What, are they going to mastermind the next collapse of the global economic system from their prison cells?

[-Lexus- 2]

Originally posted by: raja_indy14

I actually didn't say that they weren't responsible. I said that to think that they intentionally and in full knowledge brought the global financial system to the brink of destruction would be false.quote>

I disagree. I think they knew what they where doing and I think they knew what they did was very dangerous. But like you said, I think that they where overly optimistic about the chances of that actually happening. They just told themselves that they knew what they where doing and that they had it under control. I doubt they had the intention of destroying the financial system although one cannot deny a group of them did become very rich when it did. 

What, are they going to mastermind the next collapse of the global economic system from their prison cells?quote>

Unless you put them in total isolation they are still dangerous. Gangleaders can still get their enemies assassinated even when they are in prison through all kinds of middle man. These bankers would never get life long prison sentences and I think they could still play in the financial markets from their cells by using relatives to buy or sell stocks and stuff. 

And once they get free they can easily become some a speculant. All you need is a laptop with internet. 

But Im against total and complete isolation. I think a quick and painless execution is better then years of isolation. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Originally posted by: -Lexus-

But Im against total and complete isolation. I think a quick and painless execution is better then years of isolation. 

quote>

If you can't make a life, you have no right to take a life.

Who is the worse murderer:  Who kills his fellow man; or Who kills the truth?

[raja_indy14 8]

Originally posted by: -Lexus-

Unless you put them in total isolation they are still dangerous. Gangleaders can still get their enemies assassinated even when they are in prison through all kinds of middle man. These bankers would never get life long prison sentences and I think they could still play in the financial markets from their cells by using relatives to buy or sell stocks and stuff.

And once they get free they can easily become some a speculant. All you need is a laptop with internet. quote>

I think this rather exaggerates their danger to society, particularly on an individual level. Although what may (by some) be described as criminal negligence or incompetence on their part has necessitated massive public bailouts of banks to forestall economic collapse, I hardly think that they need all be treated as dangerous offenders who will take the next possible opportunity to plan and carry out the destruction of the financial system.

Either way, despite the recent European frenzy over hedge funds and speculators, the root of the problem with the economy of late lies with the banks - everything else stems from that. Regulate the banks and the problems with hedge funds and speculators, who required the massive amounts of easy money sloshing around from banks to reach their present state, and they pose less of a risk. Another great thing about hedge funds and speculators is that when they go bust, and hundreds of them have since this crisis began, governments don't have to bail them out.

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

Who is the worse murderer: Who kills his fellow man; or Who kills the truth?quote>

The man. Truth isn't all it's cracked up to be.

[-Lexus- 2]

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

If you can't make a life, you have no right to take a life.

Who is the worse murderer:  Who kills his fellow man; or Who kills the truth?

quote>

But I can make a life. 

Asides from that, I think its simply more humane to execute someone quick and easy (of course using the right method) then locking him in some cage like an animal, totally isolated from everyone, leaving him to become slowly insane from boredom and his own mind. Its torturous. But, like I said, this topic isnt about suitable punishments for criminals. 

@raja_indy14

I think that I wouldnt trust them ever with any financial product ever again. I think the chance of them going for the easy money and thinking its safe to mess with money while its not, is simply to high. But since you cant really regulate it anymore, thanks to internet. Everyone can mess around on the financial market. 

[OnMyKnees92 0]

My vote goes to Capitalism, I wonder how people will be able to get money if The Government takes all of it all the time? I doubt a lot of company owners will feel tempted to stay in a country like that.( I hope I didn

[shermankim777 0]

if only FDR lived to pass the second bill of rights, then would capitalism be perfect...

[astronelson 339]

Originally posted by: OnMyKnees92

My vote goes to Capitalism, I wonder how people will be able to get money if The Government takes all of it all the time? I doubt a lot of company owners will feel tempted to stay in a country like that.( I hope I didn´t offend any Socialist on here).

quote>

That would be communism. No socialist nation has a 100% tax rate. While the tax rate would be higher than in a capitalist state, the government also spends more on the welfare of the people. And a happy, healthy workforce is a productive workforce.

[OnMyKnees92 0]

Originally posted by: astronelson

Originally posted by: OnMyKnees92

My vote goes to Capitalism, I wonder how people will be able to get money if The Government takes all of it all the time? I doubt a lot of company owners will feel tempted to stay in a country like that.( I hope I didn´t offend any Socialist on here).

quote>

That would be communism. No socialist nation has a 100% tax rate. While the tax rate would be higher than in a capitalist state, the government also spends more on the welfare of the people. And a happy, healthy workforce is a productive workforce.quote>

You are right about the whole workforce thing but I know that most capitalist don´t states abuse their workforce like the workforce were animals, that´s only in extreme cases which are very rare.

And just one question, what´s the difference between socialism and communism? from all things I have read about the political ideologys I haven´t noticed any difference between socialism and communism.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: shermankim777

if only FDR lived to pass the second bill of rights, then would capitalism be perfect...quote>

Except that his so-called "second bill of rights" offered up some very Soviet-like ideas. So, no.

Originally posted by: OnMyKnees92

what´s the difference between socialism and communism? quote>

There isn't really a clear answer to that question, largely stemming from the fact that the terms "socialism" and "communism" themselves are poorly defined.

I personally would make the distinction as such: in socialism, the government controls many key things. In communism, the government controls everything. Both are about sacrificing personal freedom in exchange for making people more equal in circumstance (commonly advertised as "helping the poor"), but they vary in the degree to which they do it. Socialism tries to strike some sort of balance. Communism says personal freedom doesn't matter, it's all about the equal circumstance. And then you have Libertarian Capitalism, which says that equal circumstance doesn't matter and it's all about the personal freedom.

This of course is a(n over)simplification, but it's the gist of things... if you ask me.

The problem is that other people will have other definitions. Very typically, people from Europe will define the terms differently from people in the US. Indeed, in the US, "communist" is a bit of a dirty word, and is often used to just generically describe anything percieved as unpatriotic or unamerican. The metric system is often jokingly called "communist".

[OnMyKnees92 0]

Thank you for trying to explain the difference between socialism and communism Duke87, I think socialism=communism, but that

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Oh, I don't know about that.  Canada is pretty socialistic in some matters like Employment Insurance and Medical Care, and I guarantee you we have no comunistic leanings.

One of our basic problems right now is trying to keep the IMF from high-jacking the upcoming G20 conference in Toronto by trying to force a statement on the proposed international banking tax.  We don't want it, don't need it, and think it is just an attempt to cover up the inadquacies of banking regulation in other countries, notably the Eurozone and the U.S.A.  If this is not a move in a capitalistic society, I'd like to know what is?  Our banks are as capitalistic as they come, but the regulations don't allow them to take stupid chances.

[OnMyKnees92 0]

N_O_Body, you sound very well read can you explain the Canadian system a little bit closer; I would be very thankful for that.

It

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

OK, here is a bit of historical background to put you in the picture.  During the great depression, one of the schedule A banks (those allowed to have branches) had a run on it, and closed its doors.  Because banks at that time were just corporations, it was tough luck all around, especially for the widows and orphans who lost their savings accounts.  There was no deposit insurance then.

In 1936 Parliament passed the Bank Act which placed some constraints on banks.

1. Shareholder double liability;  If you held shares in a bank and it failed, you had to pay for your shares again, into the banks treasury.  A subsequent amendment lifted this rather draconian measure.
2. If a bank is failing, the remaining schedule A banks must join together to take it over, protecting the depositors.
3. A deposit insurance corporation was created with premiums paid by the banks.
4. The Bank of Canada was created with powers to:
   1. Require the chartered banks to keep a part of their assets on deposit with them.  The amount varies from time to time as seen fit by the governor of the Bank of Canada
   2. Set the overnight interest rate at which the chartered banks could borrow from the Bank of Canada.  This has the effect of fixing the "prime rate" the banks can charge to their best customers.  This prime rate will be spread above the Bank rate.
   3. Receive new applications for schedule A banks, and rule on them.
   4. At the time, the maximum interest rate for loans from the banks to customers was set at 6%.  This limit has subsequently been lifted by amendment to the Act
5. Banks were not allowed to hold an interest in land, not even their own premises.  This caused a scramble to set up holding companies for the various banks' properties such as head offices and branches.  This has been modified shortly after WW II to allow the banks to hold Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation's insured mortgages.  CMHC is a crown corporation.
6. Banks are not allowed to speculate in paper assets (derivatives, etc.).  Everything they invest in must be real.

The Bank of Canada is a crown corporation overseen by the Minister of Finance.

And so you see, briefly, why we didn't have the bank crashes and crap outs that were had world wide recently, and why we are opposed to trying to quick fix this with a tax when what is really needed is some regulation.

[OnMyKnees92 0]

That was very helpful N_O_Body, have a nice day.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Oh, you are welcome.  I worked for a schedule A bank at the beginning of my career and was thoroughly catechised at the post-secondary level.  Lot's of correspondence courses from the Queen's University School of Commerce as it was then.  I actually achieved standing as an associate of the Canadian Banker's Association.

Strangely, it was that bank that got me into systems and computing when I did some design for an alternate use of a branch posting machine.  But that's another story.

[raja_indy14 8]

Originally posted by: OnMyKnees92

And just one question, what

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Originally posted by: raja_indy14

Originally posted by: OnMyKnees92

And just one question, what´s the difference between socialism and communism?quote>

Communism is one of the more extreme forms of Socialism, and basically prescribes complete control of the means of production by the workers themselves (in practice, however, it has been done through the medium of the Communist Party). Under Communism, there is no private property and economic activity tends to be centrally plannedquote>

I guess you know that old joke that originated with the Poles:  If the Russians ever had a five-year plan on the Gobi, there would soon be a shortage of sand.

[morriswalters 16]

Interesting article article in The New York Times relevant to this thread.

www.nytimes.com/2010/05/23/world/europe/23europe.html

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Yes, socialism is expensive, eh?

We have found that out with our Health Plan and some other social things, but fortunately, we don't close our country down for a month in the summer.  France can now live to regret its sloppieness and big-time spending.

[-Lexus- 2]

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

Yes, socialism is expensive, eh?

We have found that out with our Health Plan and some other social things, but fortunately, we don't close our country down for a month in the summer.  France can now live to regret its sloppieness and big-time spending.

quote>

Meh, France knows there is more to life then only making money and increasing the economic growth.

Besides, Capitalist America is no better then Europe. They have the same deficit on their budget as Greece and when their dollar collapses nobody cares. 

Its just that everyone ignores that but acts like the world is going to burst into flames when a country like Greece (who actually gives a ***** about Greece) doesnt have their finances straight? 

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: morriswalters

Interesting article article in The New York Times relevant to this thread.quote>

And this is The New York Times saying this. That tells you something right there!

Originally posted by: -Lexus-

Besides, Capitalist America is no better then Europe. They have the same deficit on their budget as Greece and when their dollar collapses nobody cares. 

Its just that everyone ignores that but acts like the world is going to burst into flames when a country like Greece (who actually gives a ***** about Greece) doesnt have their finances straight? 

quote>

The problem is that Greece is on the Euro, so if it goes down, it drags all of Europe down with it. The US, meanwhile, has its own currency.

We do have our own Greece in our union, though: California. The state is broke thanks to entitlements run amok, and nobody wants to surrender any of them.

[-Lexus- 2]

Originally posted by: Duke87

Originally posted by: morriswalters

Interesting article article in The New York Times relevant to this thread.quote>

And this is The New York Times saying this. That tells you something right there!

Originally posted by: -Lexus-

Besides, Capitalist America is no better then Europe. They have the same deficit on their budget as Greece and when their dollar collapses nobody cares. 

Its just that everyone ignores that but acts like the world is going to burst into flames when a country like Greece (who actually gives a ***** about Greece) doesnt have their finances straight? 

quote>

The problem is that Greece is on the Euro, so if it goes down, it drags all of Europe down with it. The US, meanwhile, has its own currency.

We do have our own Greece in our union, though: California. The state is broke thanks to entitlements run amok, and nobody wants to surrender any of them.

quote>

Its just that the dollar is the global currency. If people would actually start speculating on the downfall of the dollar the entire world would be utterly screwed. Maybe thats the reason why nobody does it. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Originally posted by: -Lexus-

Its just that the dollar is the global currency. If people would actually start speculating on the downfall of the dollar the entire world would be utterly screwed. Maybe thats the reason why nobody does it. 

quote>

What ever gave you that idea?  Since the U.S. dollar has as much backing in specie as any other currency, speculation is rife.  If people lost confidence in America, the crash would be spectacular.  Floating currencies are the curse of our economies.  If there was a crash, only the Swiss Franc might survive and I am not sure about it, either.

Ever since the gold standard was abandoned, everything depends on faith, wheels within wheels, way up in the middle of the air.

[morriswalters 16]

You have an amazing faith in the gold standard, wouldn't speculators just speculate on gold?   IMO all this indicates is people  don't associate what they want with how they will pay for it.  They talk about  wanting fiscal responsibility but they don't want to take the bitter pill.  It also makes the point that the social democracies of Europe face the same pressures as the US.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Originally posted by: morriswalters

You have an amazing faith in the gold standard, wouldn't speculators just speculate on gold?   IMO all this indicates is people  don't associate what they want with how they will pay for it.  They talk about  wanting fiscal responsibility but they don't want to take the bitter pill.  It also makes the point that the social democracies of Europe face the same pressures as the US.

quote>

The point of a metal being declared a standard is that its price is fixed.  If a gold standard, then you can't speculate in gold because there is no market.

As to facing the music, most people rationalize that away.  However, he who calls the piper ...

[raja_indy14 8]

Ever since the gold standard was abandoned, everything depends on faith, wheels within wheels, way up in the middle of the air.quote>

Admittedly, the gold standard relied on faith as well, and was abandoned because people lost faith in the value of the dollar relative to gold. All mediums of exchange rely on faith. Either way, I too am somewhat puzzled by this love of the gold standard, the return to the gold standard prior to and during the Great Depression almost certainly exacerbated that economic downturn.

[saltandsauce 0]

as long as the Chinese peg their currency against the dollar, the dollar wil rise/stay stable.

China is like the man holding a 6x3' lead brick from falling off a cliff. if china unpegs, expect the dollar to crash through the floor

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Naturally. 

We should all remember that paper currency is the unnatural outcome of letters of credit between medieval banking houses, but that these letters were backed by deposits of specie (real things).  Over the years, the various governments have had the termerity to issue paper notes backed only by the trust of the people accepting it.  One of the great adages of this system is "A bad currency drives out a good.", which is why governments are really hard on counterfeiters.  Counterfeit currency, which is an instrument of war, can do great harm to the fisc.  The fact that domestic criminals also engage in counterfeiting makes them economic terrorists, and they should be treated as such.

There is nothing more delicate and important than the trust of the governed for the government.

[-Lexus- 2]

Originally posted by: N_O_Body

What ever gave you that idea?  Since the U.S. dollar has as much backing in specie as any other currency, speculation is rife.  If people lost confidence in America, the crash would be spectacular.  Floating currencies are the curse of our economies.  If there was a crash, only the Swiss Franc might survive and I am not sure about it, either.

 Ever since the gold standard was abandoned, everything depends on faith, wheels within wheels, way up in the middle of the air.quote>

All Im saying is that technically the US should have gone bankrupt years ago. I mean, look at their national debt. It goes up in the trillions if not more. There is no way they can ever repay that. Yet, everyone chooses to ignore that and focus their speculating hate on a insignificant little country like Greece. And yes, my point is, why has nobody lost faith in a country like America that is, if you look at the numbers, in a worse state then any other modern western nation. 

And a gold standard would not have prevented such a thing. You might even be worse off seeing how the price of gold fluctuates as well. Besides, gold is a finite resource. With all the money printing going on in the US it would either make gold worthless or a gold standard impossible to maintain. People would simply loose their trust in a gold standard and the whole thing would come crushing down as well.