An oddity with renaming of custom-made lots...

[The Duke of Rockford 1]

I have been looking for an answer to this issue that have baffled me so much for ages ever since LE and BAT came out. Anytime I plopped custom-made lots that I or anyone else made in my city, it seems that renaming them via query dialog were not saved upon saving and exit of game. Even more oddly, renaming of a custom-made lot via query dialog will also affect all other instances of the same lot by applying the same name even though I didn't want that. For example, if I were to rename one of two police stations to "Oakdale Police Station", the other police station will also get that same name. This is for the whole extent of game session before exiting, though. After saving and exiting the city, I reloaded it, only to find those name changes reverted to its default lot name.

I was wondering if anyone here had experienced that particular issue before and if there is a workaround or solution to that issue. Even better, a link to a thread that already discussed about it somewhere outside this forum would be appreciated. I feel this issue may have already been known for ages by public, in particular those who does BAT and those who downloads them.

Help would be appreciated in this situation. Thanks in advance.

[RippleJet 36]

I don't really have any experience in this myself, but obviously what you are telling is true.

Changing the name in the title field of the query window temporarily changes the exemplar name of the building (in the copy of it that you have loaded in memory). But it doesn't save it to the exemplar file on your hard disk.

Since the building is loaded only once into memory, changing the name of it will of course change all instances of it.

If you want to change the name permanently you would have to learn some basic modding... ask more if you're interested!

In order to get different names on different police stations you would, unfortunately, have to make copies of the original one, save the copy with a unique instance number and change the name of that copied exemplar. After that you would have two indentical police stations in your menu (but with different names).

One alternative way of doing this would of course be to add a sign (first menu item in the game) over the station saying "Oakdale Police Station".

[The Duke of Rockford 1]

Actually, about police station, I meant custom-made ones, if I assume you thought I meant the one that came with the game upon installation. If not, I apologize for confusion.

But anyway, it only seems to affect those that does not originally come with game. That mean only those custom-made lots are affected by this situation, as far as I know. I do not recall at this time of posting if it also applies to those lots and landmarks that are available for download on the official SimCity website. I will have to check but I suspect it's unlikely. I do not know if this is the answer but it appears from my investigation since I created this thread that it may have something to do with a part of exemplar file called User Visible Name Key or something like that. I had bookmarked some of that threads.

I am not sure if this will resolve the issue described above so I would like to know what you or anyone think about this. Here it is:

https://www.simtropolis.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=121&threadid=65832

https://www.simtropolis.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=42&threadid=67700

[hjanfield 0]

I tried to post this last night, but Simtropolis stopped responding for me, and hasn't worked again until now... so here it is again.

Actually, that's entirely wrong, RippleJet.

The problem lies with there being multiple ways to "name" a lot in the SC4 exemplars. The method the LE uses causes all copies of a lot to have the same name; renaming one will rename all of them in your city, plus the menu icon; but only in that city. Those changes will also be lost upon exiting the city. Most modern lots do not suffer this problem.

To fix this problem, you DO need to learn some basic modding. Here's a step-by-step method. I hope I have this right. Maybe a seasoned pro can confirm this ...

To start, download and install iLive's Reader from the Modds & Downloads section of this site.

   1. To prevent accidents, make sure you make a backup copy of the file you are editing in another directory, outside your Plugins folder.

   2. Open the .dat or .SC4Lot file of the lot you wish to edit.

   3. Click "Fill the List" if the file list does not come up automatically.

   4. Select each Exemplar file individually and look at the "Exemplar Type" property (which is usually right at the top). You want one with an Exemplar Type of "Buildings". If there is only one lot in the file you opened, you will properly have two Exemplar files. If you have more, don't panic.

         a. If there is more than one exemplar with an Exemplar Type of "Buildings", there are likely multiple lots in this file. You will need to figure out the right one to edit based on Exemplar Name/Item Name properties, or other means of identification you can get from in-game (for example, Plop Cost).

         b. When looking at properties that are numbers (like Plop Cost), keep in mind that all properties with a type of "Uint.." or "Sint.." (but not "Float.." numbers) are in Hexadecimal format. You can use Windows Calculator to convert between hex and decimal. Switch to Scientific Mode, click Dec, type a number, and click Hex. This also works in the reverse manner.

   5. Look for an "Item Name" property, and delete it.

   6. Look for a "User Visible Name Key" property. Change the value to "0,0,0" (this will change automatically to "0x00000000,0x00000000,0x00000000", so don't freak out). If it doesn't exist, add it, again with the value "0,0,0")

   7. Find the "Exemplar Name" property and type in the name that the lot should be called. For example, "Jimbob's Police Station".

   8. Be sure to save your changes before closing the program (or loading SimCity), because Reader does not prompt you to save.

   9. Load SimCity 4 and test your changes by looking at the menu entry (it should have the new name you've given it), then plopping two copies of it. Rename one of them, then check the name of the other - it should not have changed, nor should the name on the menu.

This will rename the lot, and will also allow you to rename individual buildings within your city, without affecting every copy of it. These new individual names will also be saved with your city.

Hope this helps.

---

On a side note, is there someone out there who has access to the database that would allow people to submit fixed files? A lot of old lots, even by professionals here, have glaring errors like this (even "Custom Ploppable" or "<Type your Name Here>" names, like on Tonks' Police Station and the Boulevard Divider) that I, and probably many others here, have fixed in our own files...

[RippleJet 36]

Thanx for enlightening me, hjanfield!

I actually never rename my lots in game... although I have corrected lots of those <Type your name here>, Blank_XX, etc. variants.

This is valuable information indeed!

And I who have been thinking Equinox' way of including information about who made the batting/modding in the Item Name property (and overruled by the name of the building in the LTEXT file pointed to by User Visible Name Key) was a cool way to do it...

[hjanfield 0]

You can safely use unused properties to store such information. In fact, in one of the programs (probably Reader), I noted Author, Team, etc properties which I doubt were part of the game.

[NetPCDoc 1]

So, hjanfield, Do I understand this correctly? (please feel free to correct me if I have any of this wrong) :

When the User Visible Name Key (User Visible etc Key) contains a TGI group of (is set to) 0,0,0 then
Exemplar Name (Exemplar etc) is where the menu/default name (info) is stored and
Item Name (Item etc) becomes the property (or properties) in which unique names (info) are stored (within saved game files -.SC4)?  and these Item properties (if present on the building exemplar) will over-write the values saved (in the saved game files) upon re-loading?

If correct - this information might be used to help decode some of the (as of yet?) undecoded structures in the saved game files?

-NetPCDoc
No detail is too small to be micromanaged.

[RippleJet 36]

I made some quick experimentation:

If Item Name is available, it takes precedence over both Exemplar Name and User Visible Name Key. Changing the name of one building in game, changes the name of all identical buildings, but only in the current game session. Upon saving and restarting, the value in the Name Key is back on every building in game.

If User Visible Name Key is available and points to a valid LTEXT file, it takes precedence over the Exemplar Name. Changing the name of one building in game, changes only that one and all other identical buildings retain the name in the LTEXT file. All names (changed in game) are saved in the .SAV file and will retain their values upon saving and restarting.

If Item Name is non-existent and User Visible Name Key is available with values (0x0,0x0,0x0) or points to any other invalid TGI or if it is completely non-existent, the Exemplar Name takes over. Likewise, changing the name of one building, changes only that one and all other identical buildings retain the name in Exemplar Name. All names (changed in game) are saved in the .SAV file and will retain their values upon saving and restarting.

EDIT 1:

The only difference between using Exemplar Name and User Visible Name Key seems to be the possibility to have several versions of the LTEXT (language text) file for different localized versions (in different container files with identical TGI's of course).

It is the use of Item Name that changes the concept. That property is obviously not saved in the .SAV file.

In conclusion, the guidelines made by hjanfield above are valid with one exception (2):

1. Delete the property Item Name (unless you want to prevent the possibility to change its name)

2. Do not change the property User Visible Name Key if it points to a valid LTEXT file. If it is non-existent it does not need to be added.

EDIT 2:

Regarding the description seen when hovering with the mouse above the menu icon:

Item Description Key (if pointing to a valid LTEXT file) takes precedence over the Item Description.

[The Duke of Rockford 1]

Wow, I have been searching for this answer in ages and finally got what I was looking for! Someone might as well go and establish a wiki dedicated to SimCity 4 or series as a whole, essentially to serve as a centralized resource that can constantly evolves with the help of volunteers. With so much useful information and stuff like that spread thin considering my own poor experience with Google and in-site search here in an attempt to locate information pertaining to what I was looking for and the notorious lack of better support and resources, as far as my experiences has shown thus far, by Electronic Arts, I believe the SimCity wiki is in order as a solution so as to ensure other new SimCity players are to not go through what others and I have went through. :/

If I recalled correctly, I believe some people informed me that the reason that search features of this forum and elsewhere on this site was not very powerful due to either financial constraints or the sore lack of staff members with skills and experiences necessary to implement far more powerful and advanced search system. I might be wrong about that, since I may not have recalled that correctly, so if that is the case, I would appreciate if someone with better information correct me on that matter. Thanks in advance.

Anyway, it's pretty much up to anyone to go and start up wiki if they want to. It will certainly take lot of responsibilities, time, and energy to do that. It will also obviously requires considerable financial resources, some good deal of bandwidths, and likewise. Not many of us have that such resources and stuff like that so I doubts there are many people who have time and money to get around to implementing that potential project. Those who do better know what they are going into.

Anyway, nice work, chiefs! Thanks for those answers that I have been taking too long to find.

[NetPCDoc 1]

Computers by Nature are Logical / Programmers, being Human, tend to be Illogical - thus making it something of a mystery as to which path a particular program will take.

Thanks, RippleJet, for the additional info (if you really have decoded the relevant parts of the Saved Game Files - I would like to see the decoded info) - But - Where did I go wrong?

My logic, in regards to savegame retrieval -

The simulator (SimCity) will first load in the values in the savegame file -
Then it will interpret the Lot (and Hence Building) references -
     by pulling in the Referenced Lot's (and Building's) Exemplar files -
     and thus overwrite whatever was actually in the save-file with any "Over-Riding" info in the "Lot Definition" (and "Building Definition").

Thus - IF SimCity is saving unique names (for a lot/building) in the save-game-file under "Item Name"
  And - IF "Item Name" is, also, present in the Lot's (or Building's) Exemplar
Then - upon re-loading a city - you wil see the values placed in the Exemplar (not those saved in the saved game file)
Else - (If "Item Name" is NOT present in the Lot's or Building's Exemplars) you will see the values from the saved game file.
(This does NOT preclude any lot that lacks a "Unique Name" from showing either the Name Key or-lacking-that the Exemplar Name values.)

Supporting Reasoning:

Given:
SimCity tends to have two types(?) of reference fields - Key Fields and String Fields:
     Key Fields will have a TGI (in this case - pointing to an LText file);
     While String Fields will have whatever was typed in (by either the user or - in the case of custom lots - the customizer).

1) I presume it would be very poor form to actually temporarily alter an exemplar name - as it WILL revert to it's original value the next time the exemplar is read from the Hard-Disk-Drive.

2) If "Item Name" (when present) is over-riding all others then "Item Name" would be the logical place to store a "Unique Name".

3) SimCity has no way of knowing what the user - unique-ly naming a particular occurance of a particular lot - will type in as an unique name and thus has no way to ensure that there is an appropriate LText file available (for the TGI Key type of field); hence it would be logical if this information were to be stored in a String-Type field (aka property, such as the "Item Name" property).

4) As a way to allow one to quickly rename all occurances of a particluar lot in a particular city - SimCity might (as an after-thought?) allow one to change an "In-Memory" copy of an Exemplar's "Item Name"; with the (short-sighted?) draw back that this has to be done every time one loads that city.  (OR - This might be a side effect, aka undocumented feature, of Maxis wanting all occurances of certain buildings to always have the same name.)

Enough Logical Thinking (for me - for now),

-NetPCDoc
No detail is too small to be micromanaged.

[RippleJet 36]

No, I have not decoded the Saved Game File... all my testing was empirical.

To further complicate matters, I made yet another experiment:

  1. I made a custom railway station with only an Exemplar Name ("RJ Station")

  2. I plopped two of them in my test city and renamed them "RJ Station 1" and "RJ Station 2"

  3. I saved and exited and restarted just to check that those names were still there (and they were)

  4. I exited and edited the station in Reader adding an Item Name ("Item Station")

  5. I opened my test city again and the two stations still had there changed values

  6. I plopped yet another station, this time the name of it was of course "Item Station"

  7. I renamed that last one to "RJ Station 3", saved and exited

  8. I restarted and the names of the 3 stations were "RJ Station 1", "RJ Station 2" and "Item  Station"...

Where's the logic in that...

The logics isn't logical... the way it looks like according to the empirical testing would suggest (and this is not to be granted):

Upon starting (entering regional view):

  SC4 loads all Exemplar Files and LTEXT files found in all plugins folders

Upon entering a city (from regional view):

  SC4 loads the .SAV, including changes made to certain names, let us (just for now) call them User Changed Name Key.

In game the order would be:

  1. Exemplar Name

  2. User Visible Name Key

  3. Item Name

  4. User Changed Name Key

However, the testing above would imply that changing the name in game will normally be saved, but not if there is an Item Name available...

Enough Illogical Thinking (for me - for now)...

[NetPCDoc 1]

Thanks, RippleJet, for the additional info.

Note-ing - that until someone actually succeeds at decoding the relevant part(s) of the savegame file(s) - at best all we can have are theories.

( Edit One: )
Given:
1) When "Item Name" IS in the building exemplar - 
   changing the "Lot Name" (in game) of any lot placed during this session
   changes the "Lot Name" on all lots placed with this exemplar - and on the "Menu Icon";
   But - all of these revert back to the original "Item Name" - when saved and reloaded.

2) When "Item Name" is NOT in the building exemplar -
   changing the "Lot Name" (in game) of any lot placed during this session
   changes only that lot's "Lot Name";
   Which is retained - even after saving and reloading.

3) Known Issues with Saving a City with Existing Lots based on Exemplars in Question,
   Changing something in one or more of the Exemplars in Question,
   Then reloading the Saved City;
   To Wit - retaining properties from pre-changed exemplars.

My best W-A-G's:
The "Item Name" property will override all other naming options.
"Item Name" is the property that SimCity saves custom (user entered) names to/under.

Resolutions of conflicting "Item Names" (when potential for more than one source exists) is still in question
- the "Givens" above don't cover enough situations.
( End Edit One )

Additional testing will require more time,
- will edit again, when completed with this round of testing.

-NetPCDoc
No detail is too small to micromanaged.

[brtim2 10]

Don't know if this message is redundant, but would it be possible to make this unarchivable? Seems like some important stuff. I know it just helped me and feel that it could help some others.

Done!  N_O_Body.

Now if someone were to clean this up and organize it, it might make a good article for the Omnibus.