Waterboarding

[toxicpiano 125]

Originally posted by: The Boy Waterboarding isn't torture, even people who are in our military that have been water boarded didn't say it was torture. 3 people have been water boarded, with those three, one being a mastermind behind 9/11 it took him or someone else, 30 seconds to give up info, it was reliable, and I do believe they acted on it. I'm not against putting water up peoples noses who want to cut our heads off with a pocket knife, then show the world. But. I know it does have other effects such as if we go into another war, who are we to tell them, you can't torture our prisoners (I'm saying another war such as when Iraq and the middle east thing is over)... I'm fine though with terrorists who kill thousands of innocent people or who plan/will do it... but as I said another war, well that'd be kinda bad on our part.quote>

A lot of countries, and the United Nations and EU recognise it as torture.

[The Boy 0]

Originally posted by: krbe

Originally posted by: panthersimcity4 Like I said before, if we torture prisoners we're just as bad as Al Qaeda and everyone else who tortures. It's a harsh thing to say but it's true.

It's actually revolting to think our government actually does this.quote>

Why is one only willing to sacrifice freedom and values in order to protect freedom and values? If you're not willing to defend your freedom and values with your life, they're not particularly important for you.quote>

Correct, what part of freedom isn't free can't people get.. I'm not trying to bash him, I'm just saying its not free it never has and it never will be free.

[panthersimcity4 162]

Originally posted by: krbe [

Why is one only willing to sacrifice freedom and values in order to protect freedom and values? If you're not willing to defend your freedom and values with your life, they're not particularly important for you.quote>

Since when is it a sacrifice to freedom and values to not practice something that is against our moral values?

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: panthersimcity4

Since when is it a sacrifice to freedom and values to not practice something that is against our moral values?quote>

I was merely commenting on your post; not critisising it. What I mean is that if we believe in a certain set of freedoms and values, we'll have to be prepeared to give sacrifices to uphold them. Torturing people might save some lives; but if one agree to torture someone, one agree to give up on rights and freedoms our ancestors willingly paid for with their blood.

[panthersimcity4 162]

Originally posted by: krbe

Originally posted by: panthersimcity4

Since when is it a sacrifice to freedom and values to not practice something that is against our moral values?quote>

I was merely commenting on your post; not critisising it. What I mean is that if we believe in a certain set of freedoms and values, we'll have to be prepeared to give sacrifices to uphold them. Torturing people might save some lives; but if one agree to torture someone, one agree to give up on rights and freedoms our ancestors willingly paid for with their blood.quote>

Oh... okay then

[krbe 193]

I guess "only" should be moved to after "sacrifice" and "you" be substituted with "one". It's late night here.

[Odainsaker 2,134]

we haven't killed thousands upon thousands of completely innocent peoplequote>

I seem to remember several thousand children in Hiroshima and Nagasaki who had absolutely no offensive war capability.  The civilian non-military casualties in the many other fire-bombed cities dwarf even what the Luftwaffe achieved.  And then we have Southeast Asia and Vietnam...

Okay, that was mean of me, but the statement was way too broad, and yes "collateral damage" does happen, even still in Iraq and elsewhere.  But I understand the point, we are not Al Qaeda because it is not in our value system to willingly and deliberately torture and slaughter innocents for callous points.  At least, it wasn't...

Perhaps a more worrying aspect of torture, is that it historically has always inevitably really been about the self-gratification of those inflicting the torture and scaring the domestic population into obediance.  Look at the smiles on the soldier's faces in the photograph.  Look at the smiles in the Abu Ghraib photos.  Talk about hollowing out our own values in the name of expediency.  How many of us could skate too closely to saying it is okay as we are doing it to those deserving foreign Muslim people as some sort of vindicated revenge for the 9/11 crimes on us?

Oh, and if you video record the sessions, be sure to destroy the tapes and edit the transcripts before any courts or congressional investigators find out.  How is that for a sign of not questioning the legality of the situation!

[fukuda 351]

Originally posted by: nazaguy Why not rename it to Freedom-Boarding? That will stop the questions.quote>

That made my day

I basically agree with panthersimcity4

Originally posted by: The Boy From what I understand, terrorists are the small part of the muslim racequote>

There's no "muslim race", as there's no "christian race"

[The Boy 0]

From what I understand, terrorists are the small part of the muslim race, muslims aren't bad at all. They're mostly just innocent people like us..

[Death54 3]

Originally posted by: The Boy

Originally posted by: panthersimcity4 Like I said before, if we torture prisoners we're just as bad as Al Qaeda and everyone else who tortures. It's a harsh thing to say but it's true.

It's actually revolting to think our government actually does this.quote>

We aren't as bad as Al-Qaeda, we haven't killed thousands upon thousands of completely innocent people, not even in Iraq have we, http://thereligionofpeace.com thats something that will Justify my post here, its not torture either.quote>

Really? Because the civilian death toll in Iraq as a result of the Iraq war and the following violence has been 80,000-90,000. Seems to me that that's ten thousands upon ten thousands of completely innocent people, more than the thousands of Al Qaeda caused deaths. Now I'm not justifying Al Qaeda's violent and terrible actions, but you have to admit, from their standpoint, America's worse.

 

@Odainsaker I agree with you almost completely. I hate the atomic bombings back in WWII too, but if the allied forces had tried to invade mainland Japan, more deaths would've happened. Too bad the dictator didn't surrender. And at least the U.S. attacked the cities based on military, economic and government significance, not based on where the bombs could kill the most people.

[The Boy 0]

I'm sorry, please, give me facts, I want links too.

[Death54 3]

Here you go. Keep in mind this is the documented civilian death tolls, not the actual, so the number might be higher. http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

Also look at that big spike at the beginning. It looks like about 2,200 Iraqi civilians were killed in that week, rivaling the 2,752 who died on 9/11 (http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/10/29/wtc.deaths/)

[The Boy 0]

See, when I posted that link I actually had a feeling in my gut someone was gonna go to iraqbodycount.org

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/global.php?id=1382634

Please, lets debate this.

[pursuit1 19]

I'm former military, waterboarding is NOT torture. If we were fighting against "soldiers" torture would be another story. A true soldier does his best not to harm innocent people. These people go out of their way to kill innocent men, women and children. They use children and pregnant women as homicide bombers. These animals should not even be considered human beings let alone soldiers by any stretch of the imagination. They deserve no protections. They need to wiped off the face of the earth. They do not deserve to live in this world among us. If we have to torture them to get information that prevents an attack that is going to kill innocent people, then so be it. They deserve one thing from the decent people of the this world, a painful horrible death. End of story

[The Boy 0]

Originally posted by: pursuit1 I'm former military, waterboarding is NOT torture. If we were fighting against "soldiers" torture would be another story. A true soldier does his best not to harm innocent people. These people go out of their way to kill innocent men, women and children. They use children and pregnant women as homicide bombers. These animals should not even be considered human beings let alone soldiers by any stretch of the imagination. They deserve no protections. They need to wiped off the face of the earth. They do not deserve to live in this world among us. If we have to torture them to get information that prevents an attack that is going to kill innocent people, then so be it. They deserve one thing from the decent people of the this world, a painful horrible death. End of storyquote>

Thank you, by the way, I'm pretty sure its suicide and not homicide, I'm pretty sure, could be wrong. Thank you for this, I mean maybe they'll listen to you.

[fukuda 351]

Originally posted by: pursuit1These animals should not even be considered human beings let alone soldiers by any stretch of the imagination. They deserve no protections. They need to wiped off the face of the earth. They do not deserve to live in this world among us. If we have to torture them to get information that prevents an attack that is going to kill innocent people, then so be it. They deserve one thing from the decent people of the this world, a painful horrible death. End of storyquote>

These animals, fanatic or not, are humans, even if you don't like it. Even worse, the brainwashed terrorists that kill people on bombings are just that, brainwashed fanatics. The real fault is not theirs, it's from the radical religious and terrorist leaders

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: fukuda These animals, fanatic or not, are humans, even if you don't like it. Even worse, the brainwashed terrorists that kill people on bombings are just that, brainwashed fanatics. The real fault is not theirs, it's from the radical religious and terrorist leadersquote>

Don't say that! How are we going to justify behaving like animals if they are humans

Originally posted by: pursuit1 I'm former military, waterboarding is NOT torture. If we were fighting against "soldiers" torture would be another story. A true soldier does his best not to harm innocent people.quote>

But if waterboarding isn't torture, why wouldn't you waterboard, say a Chinese soldier? Why shouldn't you be waterboarded as a part of the interrogation?

(Read "you" as any soldier)

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: nazaguy Why not rename it to Freedom-Boarding? That will stop the questions.quote>

[purpledaddy 6]

Well fortunately I heard they stopped showing prisoners '60's surfer movies!

[krbe 193]

Not bad Duke; but I guess the government want their share of the credit to, so I added the appropriate endorsments.

[panthersimcity4 162]

LOL @ Freedom-boarding.

[xmike1991 2]

Originally posted by: krbe

Originally posted by: fukuda These animals, fanatic or not, are humans, even if you don't like it. Even worse, the brainwashed terrorists that kill people on bombings are just that, brainwashed fanatics. The real fault is not theirs, it's from the radical religious and terrorist leadersquote>

Don't say that! How are we going to justify behaving like animals if they are humans

(Read "you" as any soldier)quote>

humans are animals too =P

[TRNSTN 0]

Originally posted by: The Boy

Originally posted by: panthersimcity4 Like I said before, if we torture prisoners we're just as bad as Al Qaeda and everyone else who tortures. It's a harsh thing to say but it's true.

It's actually revolting to think our government actually does this.quote>

We aren't as bad as Al-Qaeda, we haven't killed thousands upon thousands of completely innocent people, not even in Iraq have we, http://thereligionofpeace.com thats something that will Justify my post here, its not torture either.quote>

I'm sorry what?:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.deaths/

650,000+ deaths. Are you telling me the United States has been fighting and army of over half a million terrorists all this time? No, I can bet you more than 80% of those people were innocent Iraqi civilians.

And http://thereligionofpeace.com, is completely biased and quite offensive. As was stated in a previous thread similar to what you are trying to say: There are extremists in all religions, Islamic extremists are only in the spotlight because of what they have done to affect so many Americans at home. If Islamic extremists had attacked a German iconic landmark in 2001, would Americans really care AS much as they do now? Please do not blame an entire religion for the actions of a few small group of ignorant angry men.

[TRNSTN 0]

Originally posted by: pursuit1 I'm former military, waterboarding is NOT torture. If we were fighting against "soldiers" torture would be another story. A true soldier does his best not to harm innocent people. These people go out of their way to kill innocent men, women and children. They use children and pregnant women as homicide bombers. These animals should not even be considered human beings let alone soldiers by any stretch of the imagination. They deserve no protections. They need to wiped off the face of the earth. They do not deserve to live in this world among us. If we have to torture them to get information that prevents an attack that is going to kill innocent people, then so be it. They deserve one thing from the decent people of the this world, a painful horrible death. End of storyquote>

Ok you're only pointing out one group of people here. One group of violent people that have some way or another been convinced what they're doing is right. Can you 100% guarantee that all these people chose  to do it? Have you ever considered perhaps they have been bullied, threatened or lied to before they committed certain actions?

What do you say about Child soldiers in Africa. They are considered soldiers no? They do terrible acts just as much, heck they rape women before they kill them and then burn their villages. But hey, they chose to do it right?

You also cannot guarantee 100% across the board all U.S Marine acting in the most humane, and moral high ground when fighting over seas wars-- just because the enemy isn't humane and doesn't appreciate life, does that mean Marines can be the same? It's not about fighting eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. As a highly "civilized" and morally "perfect" highly trained intelligent PROFESSIONAL army, why have you stooped to the level of the very "dirt (based on what you're calling these human beings)" you vow to kill and promise horrible painful death?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=r73j_gfZfmg

Maybe you guys should stop sending uneducated children soldiers with astronomical testosterone levels to fight your wars. You know they'll be thinking with their balls more than their brains. Are those the kinds of values and morals you want to be showing to the world? Those of an immature boy who's trigger happy and has no respect for anyone?

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: TRNSTN

And http://thereligionofpeace.com, is completely biased and quite offensive. As was stated in a previous thread similar to what you are trying to say: There are extremists in all religions, Islamic extremists are only in the spotlight because of what they have done to affect so many Americans at home. If Islamic extremists had attacked a German iconic landmark in 2001, would Americans really care AS much as they do now? Please do not blame an entire religion for the actions of a few small group of ignorant angry men.quote>

Among other things, they link to this article about Barack Hussein Obama (important to get that name!), which likens his performance to that of Hitlers:

[...]

The last time so many women cheered and swooned and orgasmically submitted themselves in large crowds to another thrilling orator took place in Germany and Austria in the 1930s and 1940s. (Lionel Chetwynd, in the current issue of The Weekly Standard, compares Obama to Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau of Canada and analyzes how the wildly adored Trudeau’s practices led to the ongoing ruination of Canada).

No, I am not saying that Obama is Hitler. I am saying that people seem desperate and wish to avoid facing a grim reality and many hard choices; they would rather allow a Savior to distract them and to make promises that he either cannot keep (no one can), or promises that, if realized, will lead to our inevitable doom.

[...]

Phyllis Cheslerquote>

I'm not sure if she remembers history, but people flocked to Hitler because he had solutions (though they say Obama's weak on politics); and because Germany was a failed state. What does this say about the state of the US?

[Micah 16]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=r73j_gfZfmg
Maybe you guys should stop sending uneducated children soldiers with astronomical testosterone levels to fight your wars. You know they'll be thinking with their balls more than their brains. Are those the kinds of values and morals you want to be showing to the world? Those of an immature boy who's trigger happy and has no respect for anyone?quote>

Indeed. The whole military is not like that at all. Of couse, you will have a minority like that in the military... but then you have to ask yourself, "How do we get those type out of the war that hurt our image aboard?" Well, you can't really. You have to wait until they do something stupid to see what type of men or women they are.

[ilikehotdogsalot 308]

Most of the miltary is a group of respected individuals, who act no where near as those idiots in a minority do.

[belfastuniguy 18]

Waterboarding is torture.

There is no excuse for it, especially when performed by a country that is supposed to 'civilised'. It is a very VERY slippery slope that no-one should even go near. Information needs to be found, but the torture of human beings as well as animals for that matter is one of the sickest and most depraved acts that mankind can take part in and those that do so and support it should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

The excuse 'good for terrorists' is highly flawed. If waterboaring is deemed accaptable who knows what will be allowed in the future as terrorists train to become immune from it, will the CIA or anyone else start electric shock torture, blood letting and god knows what else, they will end up killing them. This is why such things are banned and should NEVER be practised. The CIA is no better than the terrorists they catch if they engage in such activities. same goes for any government or organisation. If you do it, in my view you lose the 'right' to claim the moral high-ground and you are no better then they are.

As for Bush using his almightly Veto, that is one of the problems with American democracy, the seperation of powers are now ineffective and broken and means a President who lacks any intelligence and education can wade in and destroy perfectly good legislation. He should not use it, but he won't listen as he seems to lack that ability.

Torture is torture no matter who you inflict it upon or dress it up. You would think after thousands of years people would have learned that basic understanding, yet thus far some have continued to display total ignorance on the issue.

[Duke87 1,070]

Originally posted by: TRNSTN

http://youtube.com/watch?v=r73j_gfZfmg

Maybe you guys should stop sending uneducated children soldiers with astronomical testosterone levels to fight your wars. You know they'll be thinking with their balls more than their brains. Are those the kinds of values and morals you want to be showing to the world? Those of an immature boy who's trigger happy and has no respect for anyone?quote>

Obviously, that's an example of the bad apples. Not all our soldiers are like that, I daresay. Of course, the good ones never get any coverage since bad news sells better, especially when it's bad news a lot of people want to hear, considering how many people are against that war.

Although, considering that everyone who's in the Army is there because they volunteered to be, it's not that surprising that people like this would end up there. It's a profession that looks appealing to people who are naturally violent and enjoy blowing things up, after all. If that guy in that video didn't think it was "bad ass" to blow up a Mosque, he probably wouldn't be in the Army. He's obviously having fun. He's enjoying his job. Now, that's a good thing, especially if you're somewhere not fun like Iraq, though it is rather disrespectful to be showing that much amusement at the destruction of something most of the locals would consider holy.

...what I really wonder, though, is who was the guy in the plane that dropped that bomb, and who was the commanding officer that ordered them to do so. Because I do believe it's standard MO that mosques and holy structures don't get attacked... which would mean they violated rules and could be court marshaled for it. I'm concerned more about them than about the laughing idiot who's just watching.

On another note, that "religion of peace" site is hilarious. Grade A satire.

[krbe 193]

Originally posted by: Duke87 It's a profession that looks appealing to people who are naturally violent and enjoy blowing things up, after all. If that guy in that video didn't think it was "bad ass" to blow up a Mosque, he probably wouldn't be in the Army. He's obviously having fun. He's enjoying his job. Now, that's a good thing, especially if you're somewhere not fun like Iraq, though it is rather disrespectful to be showing that much amusement at the destruction of something most of the locals would consider holy.

...what I really wonder, though, is who was the guy in the plane that dropped that bomb, and who was the commanding officer that ordered them to do so. Because I do believe it's standard MO that mosques and holy structures don't get attacked... which would mean they violated rules and could be court marshaled for it. I'm concerned more about them than about the laughing idiot who's just watching.

On another note, that "religion of peace" site is hilarious. Grade A satire. quote>

It could be that the Mosque was used as a hiding place for insurgents, et. al. Anyway, filming such operations are just plain stupid—of course those guys still wanna ***** with them! It's not exactly the way to win a victory.