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KotCity 0.49.3 (last updated 4/13/2018): an open source city simulator

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  • Original Poster
  • 9 minutes ago, matias93 said:

    That's also why I'm also thinking on how design decisions you are taking right now could impact your work for years to come: is more probable that you'll pile up improvements on this version of KC than to make successive versions of the game, and while many things can be changed in an upgrade, some others, as the scale of the game, are easily set in stone on the first alpha versions.

    This is a controversial opinion but I follow one of the principles of Fred Brooks: http://wiki.c2.com/?PlanToThrowOneAway

    On 1.0 we are painting ourselves into corners we aren't even aware of. I am planning to do 1.0... I will learn a lot along the way. When 2.0 starts we will have a clean foundation and be ready to go. If I go for the "full bore" SC4 approach I will either never ship OR it will end up being painful to modify.

    When 1.0 is complete we can observe what works and what does not. Some subsystems will be excellent and we can carry them forth. Others will have been ill-considered. Armed with a bucket of hindsight 2.x will be much higher quality.

    By the way, I am also opposed to the idea of an "eternal alpha". Let's get this thing going, get rid of all the bugs and get something out there.

    I want to give you a fun, modest game, instead of puttering away on the perfect, fully 3D ambitious project forever. In the below image, we are working on the skateboard right now. Stick with me and I'll get you the car.

    5aa84f8c3965a_1qINsG4WH_BDN-viMJUH6Ng.png.6018a790cde8b8c217163f2aee2ae616.png

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    The roadmap is looking really promising. I really appreciate how much time you have invested in this.

    Thinking about the structure of the grid I am thinking of adjustable grids. I think it would be cool if you could place down grids on various angles and then it would almost be like a gridless environment. This I think would allow for easier implementation to a gridless Kotcity 2.0

    Thinking about the NAM aspects of the project I think I could sort out a solution for the transport side of things.

    Would you be willing to let me know the programming languages for Kotcity so I can sort out some of the implementation for the transport network? Sorry if I have asked this before.

    I am thinking to make things simple for the transport side of things, Intersections would rely on a grid while curves could be free flowing morph curves.

    Really keen to see where this project goes.

    -eggman121 (NAM team member)

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  • Original Poster
  • 8 minutes ago, Eggman121 said:

    Thinking about the NAM aspects of the project I think I could sort out a solution for the transport side of things.

    Would you be willing to let me know the programming languages for Kotcity so I can sort out some of the implementation for the transport network? Sorry if I have asked this before.

    Yeah man, 100% Kotlin. This thing is open source -> https://github.com/kotcity/kotcity

    I have a few people contributing already -- the toolset is really easy to work with. If you're not familar with Kotlin I think you'll be surprised how easy it is to work with. I've only been on it about 3 mos. and it's very productive. If you want to chat with me or the other devs live, we have a chat room in place -> https://gitter.im/kotcity/Lobby

    I'd be overjoyed if we could bring some of the NAM goodness into here. We are currently implementing basic stuff like land value, pollution, police, fire. I have a A* based pathfinding system already built in for road travel. It works OK so far but we still need walking, cycling, rail for passenger and industry, etc. I also have the "routes" tool from SC4 already implemented so you can see the paths taken through each road or building. Also in scope for 1.0 for me would be highways, one way roads, avenue, bus depots and probably a few more goodies. I'll probably spend the few extra hours to get monorail just because I have a fondness for them.

    So basically, if you want to jump in, come on in! We are at the point where we are implementing so many subsystems there is plenty of work to spread around. I am very aware of NAM and I'm a passionate user of it, but have never modified it or worked on it. I think if I had someone that could bring some NAM knowledge in KotCity would be even better!

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    8 hours ago, kotcity said:

    My current model is designed like this: residences produce labor (later on will be separated to unskilled, skilled, management). They attempt to find a job at either commercial, industrial zone or utility. Each worker helps zone either produce goods OR convert wholesale goods to goods. When industrial ships goods to commercial, it is given $. When commercial ships goods to residences it receives $. Workers from residential (if employed) receive $ from the place they work. Goods are consumed at the residences and serve as economy sink. I am still playing with the values to see what "works". Not sure how much people should get paid, how much goods cost, etc. Should goods be dynamically priced? Should salaries be dynamic? It is a very open question to me and I puzzle over it when I away from the keyboard.

    Oh my goodness, I came to think of few other things now that you mentioned this!

    Firstly, automation. Facilities should be able to become sufficiently advanced to no longer require as much human labor to produce the same amount of goods and services. The question then becomes, what do with people whose abilities are no longer needed...

    That leads to my second point, needs. Why do people need to work? In our modern market based economy, the answer is simple, to earn a wage. Why do they need wages? In order to be able to purchase goods and services. What are these goods and services for? To sustain themselves, and live happ lives. So I thought, why not make that the point of the game? Making sure that every single resident of the city leads a happy and satisfying life. But what makes a satisfying life? Well, I actually asked myself that question a few months ago, and I knew of Maslow's hierarchy of human needs, so I looked it up on Wikipedia. However, I found out there have been criticism towards this model, as it assumes there is a rigid hierarchy in the first place. Enter Max-Neef's Model of Fundamental Human Needs, which proposes that humans have eight different fundamental needs, that are all of equal need of satisfaction.

    But why? Well, you know how basically all city building games simply assume that bigger is better? The games themselves never tell you the player exactly why that is, they just assume you think the same way. This is where fundamental human needs come into place; in order to have all of yours satisfied as an individual, you're pretty much directly or indirectly in need of other individuals, groups, communities, institutions, what have you. But you have to think those other people are also individuals with needs to be satisfied, which basically means that it is always better to scale society up, rather than down,. Or at least until all everyone's needs can be satisfied by fully automated mechanisms, that's when the need to expand infrastructure should no longer apply.

    Thirdly, I want you take a look at this comment, posted in response to a video essay about Koyaanisqatsi:

    Quote

    Your little inclusion of Cities: Skylines at 8:15 [timestamp] got me thinking about how city builders themselves present the "grid of humanity", and how I feel C:S is missing...something.

    C:S focuses heavily on the "technical" aspects of running a city: the transportation, zoning, utilities, and so on. Aside from the fact that people need certain services like hospitals, schools, parks, the social aspect of a city is almost non-existent. Your inhabitants aren't presented as anything more than numbers by which to evaluate the efficiency of your grids.

    It's not likely to happen, as I don't think there's much commercial demand for a more in-depth social simulation, but I'd like to see social tension and development taken into account in a city-builder game. You see shades of this in games like Tropico, but still, the main focus is on the technical and efficiency aspects of your design.

    Take, for example, gentrification. C:S, like all other city builders, encourages the player to raise the quality of life of neighbourhoods so that wealthier and more prosperous inhabitants move in. In-game, this is represented as "low-wealth" buildings getting demolished and being replaced by new and shiny "high wealth" buildings. There is no mechanic to represent the disruption this causes to the local community, and you can build a highly successful city that has nothing but middle and upper class residents. C:S does have a little bit of the need to make choices regarding development, in that you can't have a manufacturing sector without low income residents (high wealth citizens refuse to work in factories). Without manufacturing, your business and retail have to import all of their products, increasing truck traffic in your city. But aside from that, it's almost always better to discard your manufacturing sector as soon as you can and encourage high-wealth development.

    So, C:S misses out on the "human" aspect: the interplay between city governments and their residents, and the drama surrounding the redevelopment of working class (and often minority) neighbourhoods. Everything—zoning, transportation, education, even things like whether or not to have parking spaces on streets—all ties back to the social interplay of living in a city. When you plop down a park, a new school, and better transit in a low-wealth neighbourhood, there is no pushback by the current residents as they're priced out of their homes. Redevelopment is always presented as a positive.

    (Endnote: of course, pretty much all city builders miss out on these aspects, but since Cities: Skylines is the most recent, I get to pick on them)

    This, BTW, is an example of what I mean, when I say city-builders lack in the social department.

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  • Original Poster
  • 1 minute ago, Flat Raver said:

    Oh my goodness, I came to think of few other things now that you mentioned this!

    Firstly, automation. Facilities should be able to become sufficiently advanced to no longer require as much human labor to produce the same amount of goods and services. The question then becomes, what do with people whose abilities are no longer needed...

    That leads to my second point, needs. Why do people need to work? In our modern market based economy, the answer is simple, to earn a wage. Why do they need wages? In order to be able to purchase goods and services. What are these goods and services for? To sustain themselves, and live happ lives. So I thought, why not make that the point of the game? Making sure that every single resident of the city leads a happy and satisfying life. But what makes a satisfying life? Well, I actually asked myself that question a few months ago, and I knew of Maslow's hierarchy of human needs, so I looked it up on Wikipedia. However, I found out there have been criticism towards this model, as it assumes there is a rigid hierarchy in the first place. Enter Max-Neef's Model of Fundamental Human Needs, which proposes that humans have eight different fundamental needs, that are all of equal need of satisfaction.

    But why? Well, you know how basically all city building games simply assume that bigger is better? The games themselves never tell you the player exactly why that is, they just assume you think the same way. This is where fundamental human needs come into place; in order to have all of yours satisfied as an individual, you're pretty much directly or indirectly in need of other individuals, groups, communities, institutions, what have you. But you have to think those other people are also individuals with needs to be satisfied, which basically means that it is always better to scale society up, rather than down,. Or at least until all everyone's needs can be satisfied by fully automated mechanisms, that's when the need to expand infrastructure should no longer apply.

    Hoo hoo hoo. This got heady pretty fast. We had a post earlier on where we talked about pluggable simulators and so forth. I'm not against this being some kind of test lab for alternative models of societies but my plan is very much to continue the work of "SimCity" statistical type simulators, which call back to computer models began in the '60s via "Urban Dynamics".

    If you want to jump in and implement some alternative ideas, I wouldn't mind it as an option in this platform, but my end goal is very close to the type of society modeled in SimCity. I am not optimizing for realism or anything else, just "SC4++". I'll be adding the "happiness" metric to KotCity as the next feature, so if you want to jump in on the project and add an alternative metric as a start, now's a great time. I wouldn't mind when you go to "New Game" you can select the type of society.

    So, in conclusion I am intrigued by your ideas and would be curious to see the implementation of them and receptive to code implementing this feature, but it's out of scope for me personally to implement on this project.

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    What if the happiness index is modeled after the Bhutan's Gross National Happiness? It attempts to fix flaws in relation of using GDP as development measure. Also, you may want to add development index, again modeled after the real-life Human Development Index.

    OK, I've a interface plan for KotCity in my notebook. This UI is a custom UI, meaning it don't stuck with the system UI, although may be adjusted according to the platform guidelines. Feel free to comment my plan.

    yx1Flrp.jpg

    The icon may different than in the sketch. Also, the so-called "notch button" is to show report about the city, much like the Tropico counterpart. Also, it inspired by the very famous iPhone X notch.

    Thanks.

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    10 hours ago, kotcity said:

    Hoo hoo hoo. This got heady pretty fast. We had a post earlier on where we talked about pluggable simulators and so forth. I'm not against this being some kind of test lab for alternative models of societies but my plan is very much to continue the work of "SimCity" statistical type simulators, which call back to computer models began in the '60s via "Urban Dynamics".

    If you want to jump in and implement some alternative ideas, I wouldn't mind it as an option in this platform, but my end goal is very close to the type of society modeled in SimCity. I am not optimizing for realism or anything else, just "SC4++". I'll be adding the "happiness" metric to KotCity as the next feature, so if you want to jump in on the project and add an alternative metric as a start, now's a great time. I wouldn't mind when you go to "New Game" you can select the type of society.

    So, in conclusion I am intrigued by your ideas and would be curious to see the implementation of them and receptive to code implementing this feature, but it's out of scope for me personally to implement on this project.

    Well, too bad I barely know how to code. Though I could in further detail try to explain how I think it should work.

    You mentioned implementing a happiness mechanic, which I assume is going to be a simple percentage that simply is going to represent what percentage of your population approves of you as a mayor. In that case, you'd have two quantities: ThumbsUp and ThumbsDown, where 0 =< ThumbsUp  => 1, and ThumbsDown + ThumbsUp = 1.

    Why am I talking about this? Because I have an idea how to replace that with a system that I think appropriately represent fundamental needs. First, instead of having there only be two options in this poll your virtual citizens take, how about six different? Rating0, Rating1, Rating2, Rating3, Rating4 and Rating5, where Rating0 being the most disapproving possible and Rating5 being the most approving possible. Again all of those each of those Rating quantities may vary between 0 and 1, and the sum of all those ratings will always be equal to 1.

    Now, instead of having these quantities representing mayor approval, how about health and well-being? Let's call this set of quantities Subsistence, so you have Subsistence0, Subsistence1, Subsistence2, Subsistence3, Subsistence4, and Subsistence5. If we say these values are updated every month, let's say all citizens who fall in the category of Subsistence0, will be dead the following month, and thus completely removed from the city's population count. Since you've stated this will not be an agent based simulation, I suppose we can update the population count every month so that e.g. PopulationFebruary = PopulationJanuary - (PopulationJanuary * Subsistence0) + Birth + Immigration - Emigration.

    I thought something similar could be done with the eight other fundamental human needs Max-Neef laid out, with the exception that people don't automatically die if they hit = on those other needs. I've attached an excel file to this post that goes a little bit more into detail over how I think it could work.

    Needs.xlsx

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    I'll just echo what others have said. I have been following this closely and I love what I see so far! I absolutely love SC4, so anything that is modeled after it and will improve upon it is music to my ears.

    I do have some strong opinions about the graphical side of the game, but I'll wait to share those until it is relevant to do so. Coding isn't my strong suit (Mechanical Engineer), but I do have about a year and a half of Java experience and would love to help yall out. I will continue to follow this closely, but until after graduation, I doubt I could invest much useful time as I already have multiple personal projects I'd like to finish up this year. That's it for now... keep it up!

    :thumb:

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  • Original Poster
  • PhotoFunia-1521077616.jpg.d57676f1871ed27d39dc539eb7379297.jpg

    https://github.com/kotcity/kotcity/releases/tag/0.42

    kotcity.svg?branch=master

    0.42 is ready! Not all the builds will be exciting but here you go!

    New builds support Mac, Windows, Linux all in one package.

    Next up: we are working on land value calculation, zone happiness, police and fire subsystems.

    "Building levels" 2 - 5 will be added shortly so buildings can upgrade themselves.

    Thanks to everyone on the board for sending ideas! Let's keep it rolling! There are a few people contributing on GitHub now so I can say it's a real community effort now.

    KotCity 0.42

    • New releases are unified. Includes .exe for Windows and .sh for Mac/Linux.
    • Updated UI.
    • Added "zots" to show when buildings are angry. They will show for no workers available, too much traffic, no customers.
    • Added quit confirmation.
    • Fixed highlight when zoning.
    • Split basic group into tools and basic in the sidebar
    • Misc build cleanups

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    How about if we raise some fund from Kickstarter? I mean, we create fundraising campaign on it. Then, the fund is going to hire professional isometric artists and coders. With this, the project will be grow faster than the current rate and fixes problems related to the game's view.

    Thanks.

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  • Original Poster
  • 7 hours ago, chfzdn said:

    How about if we raise some fund from Kickstarter? I mean, we create fundraising campaign on it. Then, the fund is going to hire professional isometric artists and coders. With this, the project will be grow faster than the current rate and fixes problems related to the game's view.

    Thanks.

    No objection to this at all. Do you have any experience creating KS campaign?

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    On 14.3.2018 at 12:25 AM, kotcity said:

    This is a controversial opinion but I follow one of the principles of Fred Brooks: http://wiki.c2.com/?PlanToThrowOneAway

    On 1.0 we are painting ourselves into corners we aren't even aware of. I am planning to do 1.0... I will learn a lot along the way. When 2.0 starts we will have a clean foundation and be ready to go. If I go for the "full bore" SC4 approach I will either never ship OR it will end up being painful to modify.

    When 1.0 is complete we can observe what works and what does not. Some subsystems will be excellent and we can carry them forth. Others will have been ill-considered. Armed with a bucket of hindsight 2.x will be much higher quality.

    By the way, I am also opposed to the idea of an "eternal alpha". Let's get this thing going, get rid of all the bugs and get something out there.

    I want to give you a fun, modest game, instead of puttering away on the perfect, fully 3D ambitious project forever. In the below image, we are working on the skateboard right now. Stick with me and I'll get you the car.

     

    I like your attitude. You seem to have a realistic idea of what can be done. That is why I am so interested of this project.

     

    Of course I would want immediately that beautiful car and mere skateboard will not satisfy me. But I realise that it is not possible to jump right into final Super SC4. So there must be a process. At the moment I am not much of help. I am no coder and thus I can’t help current work. I can only download the game and do some testing. If you are able to reach graphic level, then perhaps I can give some concrete input.

     

    I have been thinking about this upgrading. ( this is in red on the left side of the chart)

     

    I understand that you want to do 5 wealth levels. $ - $$$$$. SC4 has only three, but change is not issue. I see these 5 levels as; Poor, Working class, Lower Middleclass, Upper Middleclass and Rich (aristocracy.)

     

    I think that you write that land value will cause levelling up. I think it should be one factor, but not the only. I know that poor people may not own the land but lets assume ownership. After the land is bought and own, then even if rise in the value, does not cause immediate need to move. Sure a developer may want that real estate and a poor person may be tempted to sell land for profit or other pressure may drive him away. Illegal pressure is not unheard especially in developing countries and at least in my country councils and the government has certain expropriate rights if land is “useful” for public need.

     

    So I would say that rising land value should cause unhappiness, but leveling up should happen only after certain limit is reached. And perhaps the rise in land value does not mean that wealthier people occupy the land plot but poor will be packed more tightly and the result is a large council estate.

     

    In a simulation it is not needed to know what caused people to leave. The game does not need to know if person gives up his/hers land willingly or under pressure. Just that conditions plus perhaps a random element is needed for levelling up.

     

    Ok, I don’t know well how SC4 upgrades. Certainly, the land value is one factor. But here I don’t have enough detail knowledge. Schools and parks rise desirability and these of course affect the land value.

     

    Another thought about leveling up. A lot has a building with 50 poor people. A levelling up happens and it is replace by a house with 30 middle class people. So for game simulation purposes, lets assume that these 30 new middle class persons were former poors. I would assume that this means that people has become richer. Social movement. In real life this would not happen within same building and in real life person's incomes would slowly increase all over the city. But for game purpose it is enough to assume that these 30 new middle class people came all over the city and those poors who stayed poor just moved away.

     

    So now I think what happened to those 20 who were left out? Should the simulation include those? I have feeling that SC4 just lose them. I have seen stagnation in population level while my tax income rises a lot in SC4 game. SC4 lots are upgrading into $$ and $$$ but as these have fewer persons per lot, the population does not increase. May be SC4 puts these extra people in to census drive. Still I would like that these extra people would still be included in the game. Even as homeless persons if they can’t find new accommodation.

     

    Five wealth levels did make me think that what if there would be five residential and commercial density levels too. Rural, sleeping suburbs (1-3 floor singles and semis) urban sprawl (terraced rows and small apartments 3-5 floors), midtown (8-10 floors) and Skyscrapers (from 16-20 floors upwards.) This might even the city growth. It is bit too abrupt in SC4 sometimes. Of course badly modded BATs can affect this.

     

    For industry I would take inspiration from T Wreck Industrial revolution mod. Instead of SC4’s light and heavy industry, he divided industry in to Dirty and High Tech. (Manufacture could grow on both zones.) So my idea for industry zoning would be Agriculture, Dirty Light, Dirty Heavy, High Tech Light, High Tech Heavy. This neatly would make five industry zone types too.

     

    This is no issue for 2D as you would use icons only? For Graphic phase Five wealth levels and five density zone would mean need for more building models. However, I do not think that it would be too bad, because some models could be recycled with different lots and props into many categories.

     

    I have modelled mainly old buildings. Buildings that have been in that spot for hundred years. During that time the wealth level of the neighbourhood can have changed many times. One of my earlier Bats were Georgian houses from London's Spitalfield area. When these were built in late 18th Century, those were occupied by Middle class artisans. During 19th Century the area went down and was part of some London's worst slums. After the Second World War the area was settle by Asian emigrants and today old the richest can afford a house in Central London. So a basically same building, but many wealth levels. I have sometimes difficulties to decide into which wealth group a certain model belongs. Thus a little bit of creation can go very far.

     

    Sorry this turned out to be a long rant. People will give all kinds of input and one of your may task is to sort out what is useful and what is not.

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    Frankly, 3D is not worth the processing required.  The only way you'll ever get it working is going with an engine that is splitting processing across many cores, and even then you won't ever get the performance you need.

     

    I think you'll find that most people simply want an improved SC4 with the following:

    • the bugs fixed
    • the major drawbacks removed and/or alieviated
    • far better performance (easily gained by splitting simulation pieces into different cores)
    • larger city tiles (or tiling gone completely from regions if the improved processing can allow for it)

    Or an entirely new game that is superior.  

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  • Original Poster
  • 1 minute ago, jaredh said:

    Frankly, 3D is not worth the processing required.  The only way you'll ever get it working is going with an engine that is splitting processing across many cores, and even then you won't ever get the performance you need.

    Totally out of scope for our 1.0 offering. I hope to have a really solid 2D experience. By the way, the current engine is GPU accelerated so I can draw 1,000,000 ugly rectangles cheaply.

    1 minute ago, jaredh said:

    I think you'll find that most people simply want an improved SC4

    I agree. I think the reason we got to this spot is EA felt SC4 was "too complex" and had to streamline stuff. I think it was just the right amount of complex.

    2 minutes ago, jaredh said:

    the bugs fixed

    What are some major snags you have? I do deal with crashes now and again but I'd always like to hear what people don't like about SC4.

    3 minutes ago, jaredh said:

    far better performance (easily gained by splitting simulation pieces into different cores)

    Already done!

    3 minutes ago, jaredh said:

    larger city tiles (or tiling gone completely from regions if the improved processing can allow for it)

    Tiling is totally gone from this game. You can run as large of a map as your PC can handle. The user defines the size. My only requirement is it must be square (the engine cannot handle rectangular maps yet).

    4 minutes ago, jaredh said:

    Or an entirely new game that is superior.  

    I am adding a few totally brand new elements, some invented here, but some just lifted from C:S, previous SimCities or other citybuilders. But, make no mistake, SC4 engine and simulation is still the blueprint. I don't think C:S feels "SC4-ish" and I want this to feel "SC4-ish" to a high degree.

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  • Original Poster
  • 1 hour ago, Bombardiere said:

    Of course I would want immediately that beautiful car and mere skateboard will not satisfy me. But I realise that it is not possible to jump right into final Super SC4. So there must be a process. At the moment I am not much of help. I am no coder and thus I can’t help current work. I can only download the game and do some testing. If you are able to reach graphic level, then perhaps I can give some concrete input.

    You can even help us add assets (buildings) if you like. It doesn't require any coding, simply providing an icon (I have been taking these from https://thenounproject.com/) and writing a small text file describing the building and how many people live there. If you find that of interest you would help the project AND the buildings would be all ones you chose :) Or simply just choose to keep sending your thoughts and comments -- I appreciate the help at any level.

    1 hour ago, Bombardiere said:

    I think that you write that land value will cause levelling up. I think it should be one factor, but not the only. I know that poor people may not own the land but lets assume ownership. After the land is bought and own, then even if rise in the value, does not cause immediate need to move. Sure a developer may want that real estate and a poor person may be tempted to sell land for profit or other pressure may drive him away. Illegal pressure is not unheard especially in developing countries and at least in my country councils and the government has certain expropriate rights if land is “useful” for public need.

    Happiness will be a combination of factors, nearby traffic, employment, etc etc. The notion of land ownership and etc are very ambiguous in this simulation. Buildings just kind of pop in and people move in, they don't own anything.

     

    2 hours ago, Bombardiere said:

    Another thought about leveling up. A lot has a building with 50 poor people. A levelling up happens and it is replace by a house with 30 middle class people. So for game simulation purposes, lets assume that these 30 new middle class persons were former poors. I would assume that this means that people has become richer. Social movement. In real life this would not happen within same building and in real life person's incomes would slowly increase all over the city. But for game purpose it is enough to assume that these 30 new middle class people came all over the city and those poors who stayed poor just moved away.

    Right now there is an outside "nation" which is modeled. We assume all people arrive from there. No one is born or dies or ages in current sim. No one also moves from rich -> poor or poor->rich.

    2 hours ago, Bombardiere said:

    Five wealth levels did make me think that what if there would be five residential and commercial density levels too. Rural, sleeping suburbs (1-3 floor singles and semis) urban sprawl (terraced rows and small apartments 3-5 floors), midtown (8-10 floors) and Skyscrapers (from 16-20 floors upwards.) This might even the city growth. It is bit too abrupt in SC4 sometimes. Of course badly modded BATs can affect this.

    You are correct.. there will be levels 1 - 5 of buildings for R/C/I. However, you may have even a level 1 skyscaper. Think of the levels as "quality". Level 1 buildings are very run down / cheap. They can hold 4 people or 400. On the other side level 5 is very rich, well built buildings, which may be a single small apartment in a very prosperous area or a luxury skyscraper. I am currently working on levels / upgrading / happiness right now so you will be able to see this yourself "soon". (I'm hoping to have initial version out in a build in the next few days).

    2 hours ago, Bombardiere said:

    For industry I would take inspiration from T Wreck Industrial revolution mod. Instead of SC4’s light and heavy industry, he divided industry in to Dirty and High Tech. (Manufacture could grow on both zones.) So my idea for industry zoning would be Agriculture, Dirty Light, Dirty Heavy, High Tech Light, High Tech Heavy. This neatly would make five industry zone types too.

    I am not 100% sure what to do here. I don't know if I want to just have one "industrial" type and the mayor plays with tax to encourage certain industries or whatnot. I think it may make sense to have agriculture be totally separate zone but again, I am not sure. I think I will just keep on the road of just "industrial" until the game is a little more filled in. SC2000 did have just low-density + high-density industry and that was viable.

    2 hours ago, Bombardiere said:

    This is no issue for 2D as you would use icons only? For Graphic phase Five wealth levels and five density zone would mean need for more building models. However, I do not think that it would be too bad, because some models could be recycled with different lots and props into many categories.

    It still takes a bit of work. I can download an icon, write the JSON file for it and have it loaded in the game in ~5 mins. Of course 500 buildings x 5 minutes is some time but I will be spending it anyway. I am hoping at some point someone will volunteer to help with building creation. You don't need to be able to draw, just able to find open-source licensed art and copy it into the game and add to CREDITS file. Having 5 levels of zones is really important to me, so even if no one comes forth I will slowly add buildings.

    2 hours ago, Bombardiere said:

    modelled mainly old buildings. Buildings that have been in that spot for hundred years. During that time the wealth level of the neighbourhood can have changed many times. One of my earlier Bats were Georgian houses from London's Spitalfield area. When these were built in late 18th Century, those were occupied by Middle class artisans. During 19th Century the area went down and was part of some London's worst slums. After the Second World War the area was settle by Asian emigrants and today old the richest can afford a house in Central London. So a basically same building, but many wealth levels. I have sometimes difficulties to decide into which wealth group a certain model belongs. Thus a little bit of creation can go very far.

    KotCity takes place "sometime" in the 21st century... since the art is non-existent right now it's hard to say much about the setting.

    2 hours ago, Bombardiere said:

    Sorry this turned out to be a long rant. People will give all kinds of input and one of your may task is to sort out what is useful and what is not.

    No need to apologize... I'm vacuuming all this up and it will be swirling around in my head as I move through implementation of the game. At this point I still have some unanswered questions about the simulation so I'm looking all over for inspiration / solutions. If you have any more ideas, keep em flowing!

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    I would suggest dividing industry into four main categories: Agriculture, Processing, Manufacturing and R&D. If we want a more complex categorization, why not introduce sub-categories? E.g., Manufacturing could be divided up into Foodstuffs, Infrastructure, Electronics, Machinery, Weaponry and Amenities.

    I also think something similar should be done with commerce; divide it up into Cargo, Retail, Service, Third Place and Administration.

    Oh, another thing! We should definitely include multi-purpose buildings, e.g. buildings that both provide both commercial activities AND residential space

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  • 7 minutes ago, Flat Raver said:

    I would suggest dividing industry into four main categories: Agriculture, Processing, Manufacturing and R&D. If we want a more complex categorization, why not introduce sub-categories? E.g., Manufacturing could be divided up into Foodstuffs, Infrastructure, Electronics, Machinery, Weaponry and Amenities.

    I also think something similar should be done with commerce; divide it up into Cargo, Retail, Service, Third Place and Administration.

    Oh, another thing! We should definitely include multi-purpose buildings, e.g. buildings that both provide both commercial activities AND residential space

    I'm trying to walk the fine line between SC4 and "other fun stuff". I don't want to get tooooo bogged down in complex chains. I am still not 100% sure how to structure my industry / commercial. I really like the idea of a "mixed use" building! I just have to figure out how to incorporate it... is it plopped or do I let the player zone some kind of combo area?

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  • 2 minutes ago, Flat Raver said:

    What could be done is to have a special type of zone that basically says "both residential and commercial facilities may be built here."

    I am probably going to use this. I like the realism.

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    On 3/15/2018 at 11:06 PM, kotcity said:

    No objection to this at all. Do you have any experience creating KS campaign?

    I've experience using KS but don't have experience with creating a campaign and get some money because it uses credit card. It should be easy, except (maybe) making video for the Create a Campaign form. Freelance 3D artist are everywhere but the tools they use are different. Make sure the artist can export to format you wanted (for instance, .vrml).

    Thanks.

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    1 hour ago, kotcity said:

    I am probably going to use this. I like the realism.

    If it's realism you're after I'd suggest implementing a mixed building type as well, i.e. ground floor for commercial, upper floors for residential as that's quite common. Could be designated with a mixed zone, or perhaps with a policy setting of sorts. 

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  • 24 minutes ago, vortext said:

    If it's realism you're after I'd suggest implementing a mixed building type as well, i.e. ground floor for commercial, upper floors for residential as that's quite common. Could be designated with a mixed zone, or perhaps with a policy setting of sorts. 

    I'm conflicted on this one because I've already committed to 5 levels of residential, commercial, industrial... Maybe only level 5s have mixed use?

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    54 minutes ago, kotcity said:

    I'm conflicted on this one because I've already committed to 5 levels of residential, commercial, industrial... Maybe only level 5s have mixed use?

    You should get inspired by the so-called (not exact) SC2013 Future of Tomorrow's Multi-tower. You can add and bulldoze levels from the tower. Levels are residences, commerce, parks, maglev station etc.

    Thanks.

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  • 1 hour ago, chfzdn said:

    You should get inspired by the so-called (not exact) SC2013 Future of Tomorrow's Multi-tower. You can add and bulldoze levels from the tower. Levels are residences, commerce, parks, maglev station etc.

    Thanks.

    Not a bad idea! We were actually discussing arcologies today... I really like the modular system and I will be incorporating it for power plants and other buildings.

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    3 minutes ago, kotcity said:

    Not a bad idea! We were actually discussing arcologies today... I really like the modular system and I will be incorporating it for power plants and other buildings.

    Hold on, does this include or involve what I'm currently thinking?

    Instead of, say, a school of a discrete size, you can start off with a small school of a fixed size and, when you need to expand, you expand the school's footprint itself, not demolish it and build a bigger school on top. If you've partitioned the land already in such a way so that your school has room to expand (IE, the school is just a few small buildings but there's an empty section of land that also belongs to the school), you can just expand the buildings you have, or add more buildings (depending on which implementation gets used).

    No other city sim has a building upgrade system except maybe the SC4 airport (that's the only example I can think of) and those fixed sized schools get boring...

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  • 2 minutes ago, Ganaram Inukshuk said:

    Hold on, does this include or involve what I'm currently thinking?

    Instead of, say, a school of a discrete size, you can start off with a small school of a fixed size and, when you need to expand, you expand the school's footprint itself, not demolish it and build a bigger school on top. If you've partitioned the land already in such a way so that your school has room to expand (IE, the school is just a few small buildings but there's an empty section of land that also belongs to the school), you can just expand the buildings you have, or add more buildings (depending on which implementation gets used).

    No other city sim has a building upgrade system except maybe the SC4 airport (that's the only example I can think of) and those fixed sized schools get boring...

    Yes, this is exactly what you are describing. I did just rip this off from SC2013... it was not my idea! That was one of the few saving graces of that game.

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    Just now, kotcity said:

    Yes, this is exactly what you are describing. I did just rip this off from SC2013... it was not my idea! That was one of the few saving graces of that game.

    Recall the proposal for CuRB I brought up. Could it go as far as sectioning off blank patches of land for road expansion? Because declaring a master plan for expanding a highway or a school is one thing; deviating from the master plan and hastily replacing it with another plan (or just leaving it unfinished) due to unforeseen issues is another. 

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  • cooltext279715495640327.png.068f7d43925d81a96b30699e99c0800c.png

    New release available at:https://github.com/kotcity/kotcity/releases/tag/0.43

    Changes:

    • Fire stations and fire coverage (by @sabieber)
    • Improvements to path finding
    • Tweaks to economy

    We are keeping things moving and taking the platform a little further each day. Now that happiness is working, I've gotten a chance to play with pathfinding a little bit. I may need to rework my economy simulation a little bit. The way things work now is that buildings establish "contracts" with each other for labor / goods. If a building provides 5 GOODS this means it may have up to 5 different buildings may request 1 GOOD each from it, or one building may request 5 GOODS from it, or anywhere in between. This system was kind of semi-inspired by C:S.

    This was good to get me off the ground but it's leading to huge feast / famine in the economy, and just isn't that realistic. The new model I am going to try is where zones have a few different buildings they prefer to trade with and the building will try each one to see if it can get its required goods. I think this is closer to how the real world works, where people frequent a few different stores to get the items they need. It should also lead to a more stable economy.

    If this model doesn't work I plan to abandon it and use something closer to the "trip generation" from SC2k.

    @sabieber has done a bang-up job of contributing ideas, code cleanups, user interface improvements and now fire departments! I'm excited to see what is next.

    For myself, some adjustments to the economy and then moving on to pollution / land value calculation.

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  • Original Poster
  • 8 minutes ago, Ganaram Inukshuk said:

    Recall the proposal for CuRB I brought up. Could it go as far as sectioning off blank patches of land for road expansion? Because declaring a master plan for expanding a highway or a school is one thing; deviating from the master plan and hastily replacing it with another plan (or just leaving it unfinished) due to unforeseen issues is another. 

    Someone earlier brought up the idea of allowing the user to "paint" zones on the map for future expansion planning. I will almost certainly implement this feature and I think it's complementary to this module feature as well.

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    On 3/16/2018 at 9:57 PM, kotcity said:

    cooltext279715495640327.png.068f7d43925d81a96b30699e99c0800c.png

    New release available at:https://github.com/kotcity/kotcity/releases/tag/0.43

    Changes:

    • Fire stations and fire coverage (by @sabieber)
    • Improvements to path finding
    • Tweaks to economy

    We are keeping things moving and taking the platform a little further each day. Now that happiness is working, I've gotten a chance to play with pathfinding a little bit. I may need to rework my economy simulation a little bit. The way things work now is that buildings establish "contracts" with each other for labor / goods. If a building provides 5 GOODS this means it may have up to 5 different buildings may request 1 GOOD each from it, or one building may request 5 GOODS from it, or anywhere in between. This system was kind of semi-inspired by C:S.

    This was good to get me off the ground but it's leading to huge feast / famine in the economy, and just isn't that realistic. The new model I am going to try is where zones have a few different buildings they prefer to trade with and the building will try each one to see if it can get its required goods. I think this is closer to how the real world works, where people frequent a few different stores to get the items they need. It should also lead to a more stable economy.

    If this model doesn't work I plan to abandon it and use something closer to the "trip generation" from SC2k.

    @sabieber has done a bang-up job of contributing ideas, code cleanups, user interface improvements and now fire departments! I'm excited to see what is next.

    For myself, some adjustments to the economy and then moving on to pollution / land value calculation.

    I do like the idea of requesting "GOOD"s. I wrote out some city simulation ideas not too long ago and one of them was that trucks and railroad cars would have actual units of goods that were produced, and it trades with other industries, so you can have a chicken farm, which goes to the chicken processing plant, where it can go to supermarkets or further processing, and then the further processing can go to restaurants (or something), or a rock quarry can be connected to a rail line and produce X units of rock/granite to help out with the economy.

    The other thing that has really bothered me from C:S is just how off-scale it is, based on size of tiles and how large they can go. I did some calculations a while back but if I recall correctly the largest functional tile was only 32x32 meters, which produces some really tiny houses and tall, narrow skyscrapers. SimCity 4's scale was a bit exaggerated (especially when it came to height but that was more for aesthetics at the angle it was viewed) but in terms of measurements it worked very well (the cities of course were non-proportional, to support the kind of infrastructure downtown means houses for miles out).

    I like the idea of this but don't get too bogged down in adding tons of features like disasters (that's what expansions are for), just put the infrastructure to do so. I recently wrote out a small document on potential disasters a city could have, and based them after real disasters. Short version of this:

    fires (basically destroys buildings and other above-ground structures, every building has flammability value)

    floods (based after Hurricane Harvey, causes abandonment, washes out bridges, damages infrastructure)

    riots (based after riots working in Prison Architect, run around and set fires, more challenging as it sets a "no-go" zone for fire trucks)

    industrial explosion (based after the West, TX fertilizer explosion, basically creates centralized earthquake zone with a scary-sounding explosion)

    chemical spill (based after the ammonium spill in Houston in the 1970s which I'm pretty sure SC2K based theirs on, will pollute water, destroy trees, and hurt people but otherwise dissipate)

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