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@madhatter106
So with respecting your decision, you're just saying what is lost that should be lost forever. F.e. if something unfortunate happens with STEX again (according to @catty-cb there are thousands of files which are missing from STEX, I found lost Tonkso file which was hosted here, but wasn't available, due to some technical difficulties on STEX back in the days) and your files accidently will disappear from the exchange, and you will be unreachable for some reasons, you don't want that anybody upload your lost stuff again here to STEX under your name even if they tried to reach/contact you and they don't get any respons from you... I'm not talking about MODPacks and things like that (good luck to prevent some ignorant idiot to share your files on reddit with or without your permission), I'm talking about preserving lost contents... So if your files will be gone somehow (accidently) than those files must have stayed as lost forever...
But correct me if I missunderstand something...

Not to mention, that thousands of plugins here on STEX or anywhere else, just a huge mess... They don't have proper folder structure, don't have readmes or pics... I could complain about your folder sturcture as well, but at least you provide proper readmes and pics in separate folder. However for my personal use I remade your folder structure like this:
ZIP Folder\madhatter106\Midrise Office Pack Vol X\the provided folder by you. And I put the readme folder with the readme html directly under the ZIP Folder. So when I'm building up a new plugin folder I only need to copy the madhatter106 folder (with its contents), because unzipping you stuffs just make a bunch of folders into the plugin folder with any order... I had that once.
And once again. Yours are still quite good, but Tonkso's uploads are just a massive mess... That install message that one should just copy the files into the plugin folder simply unacceptable and makes things unorganized...
So if it was on me with a big housekeeping (which would take a couple of years at least) I would remade all the uploads with a proper folder sturcture and reupload them, with or without the original creator consent... I wouldn't change the actual content (however examples show that sometimes BATting/LOTing and MODing aren't walking hand in hand, the uploaded content actually break a bit of the functionality of the game. Sometimes... Not always.), but the folder sturcture would be more user friendly and would help ones plugin folder to keep more tidy and organized.

And I'm still not talking about MODPACKs, because for a proper modpack what I just wrote above would be mandatory. And if someone wants to share a whole plugin folder the first step would be make it organized where all the main, common dependencies take place in a dedicated PLUGINS WORK or DEPENDENCIES folder... And yepp, there should be a standard and mandatory MODPack structure guide how the MP is supposed to be built up, in that way if one wants to mix the modpacks to get more variety, than the dependencies and plugins wouldn't get duplicates, because they would just simply overrite each other.

BUT I understand your decision, but this is exactly that "complain" what I was talking about. You are not constructive... What would be nice from you to help this process, not blocking it. Because you shared your stuffs for the community for what reason? You could find a solution to help, but nooooo.... You're complaining and with all your power you have, you are against to  the changes and possible MODpacks, for what reason? Against redistribution? What you could do, you could make a pack with some of your models and lots, and saying that you give them to the community for using them for MODPacks. The originals still would be here and not available for MODPacks... Well, that would be constructive...

 

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This thread is going around in circles so I'll only say:

1. I agree with T Wrecks.

2. I don't think it's unreasonable to have content creators on board with a new system.

3. If a good system is presented the vast majority of content creators would enthusiastically jump on board.

4. I don't know the full details or the current progress, but I do know the admins are working on something like a modpack which I don't think is *exactly* like what is being discussed (and like I said I don't know exactly what they're doing) but which exists within the current framework.

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2 hours ago, Tyberius06 said:

BUT I understand your decision, but this is exactly that "complain" what I was talking about. You are not constructive... What would be nice from you to help this process, not blocking it.

How about he created some of the stuff we're talking about in the first f***ing place? How's that for helping? How's that for being constructive? It's constructive in the most literal sense of the word: constructing something that didn't exist before. We couldn't even talk about better ways of distribution if we didn't have anything to distribute in the first place, could we? I really like you, I know you contribute yourself, and I don't have any general problem with you, but this part of your post really set me off.

Now, for legacy stuff, that's a different matter. If a person can no longer be contacted, if their assets get lost because the site originally used for distribution goes down, then I'd agree that there is something like distribution in good faith - keeping that stuff alive, presenting it in the best way possible. I guess if someone took the trouble to create all this and share it, it is fair to say that it would probably be aligned with their intentions.

For stuff made by people that are still around, simply tossing it around as you, me, or anyone else might see fit, without ever asking, without ever even trying to come to an agreement, seems just disrespectful to me. As Tarkus correctly stated above, trust is one of the key values of this community, and behaviour like that could undermine this trust. People aren't even unwilling to cooperate, they are just unwilling to be trodden over.

Do you happen to know the rate at which content creators refuse to have their stuff included on STEX DVDs? I don't, either, but I guess it's really, really low. That might be because it is clearly visible that Simtropolis is giving something to the community, because the STEX DVDs are respected, because the contributors are respected and because it can be acknowledged that there's some spirit of constructivity behind compiling that stuff, running the site, pressing all those discs, and shipping them all over the world. It's an entirely different world from 'gimme gimme gimme', and if any solution is going to be accepted, then it will have to go along similar lines. It's not even difficult, either. In my (admittedly limited and highly subjective) experience, having some of your own effort to show and asking politely can work wonders. *:)

This being said, I'm pretty sure that if we get this started, and if we get it started in the right way, it will establish itself and find acceptance. But not with talk like this unfortunate line that I quoted, sorry.

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46 minutes ago, T Wrecks said:

Do you happen to know the rate at which content creators refuse to have their stuff included on STEX DVDs? I don't, either, but I guess it's really, really low. That might be because it is clearly visible that Simtropolis is giving something to the community, because the STEX DVDs are respected, because the contributors are respected and because it can be acknowledged that there's some spirit of constructivity behind compiling that stuff, running the site, pressing all those discs, and shipping them all over the world

This bit here is key and goes back to what I said seemingly a trillion pages ago.

Why not simply create paid expansion packs of 'consenting' content creators stuff? We've become bogged down in this idea of a member pursuing a mod-pac when such a simple, simple solution is staring us in the face?

The idea is simply start with the top creators of custom content (I think it is those creators with around 100 or more files on the STEX) So in that vein, you simply create a 'jasoncw' expansion pack, a 'twrecks' expansion pack, a 'dedwoods' expansion pack, a 'simgoober' expansion pack, an 'Il Tonkso' expansion pack etc, etc which combines either all of the content of that creator alone (ie don't mix other creator's work it), or grouped together by RCI by single creator, by type (eg Simgoober RES, Simgoober CO, Simgoober CS) that the site charges a small fee for being able to download the whole pack in one go, as well as leaving the individual files for free for people to download one at a time.....either way, content creators rights are maintained and the noobs can download lazily and thoughtlessly to fill their plugins in one go and the site gets to pocket a very small donation to cover bandwidth.

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53 minutes ago, T Wrecks said:

....This being said, I'm pretty sure that if we get this started, and if we get it started in the right way, it will establish itself and find acceptance. But not with talk like this ....

First all am in total agreement with yours and @madhatter106posts

Secondly If it was agreed to have officially recognized megapacks that were created by a designated team the first pack would take time, probably a lot of time as agreements would have to be reached and decisions made as to how it was going to work, but the second pack would take less time and so on ... its not like they would be generating an endless supple of "packs" as that would put us back in the same position as now with too many choices for a new user ... may be a dozen packs altogether covering the basic groups like commercial or farming and then some country-specific packs so if you want something with a uk theme you could have it.

Edit: sorry was typing post when @mattb325 posted


  Edited by catty-cb  

Added a EDIT

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  • Original Poster
  • 2 hours ago, Jasoncw said:

    This thread is going around in circles so I'll only say:

    4. I don't know the full details or the current progress, but I do know the admins are working on something like a modpack which I don't think is *exactly* like what is being discussed (and like I said I don't know exactly what they're doing) but which exists within the current framework.

    Thank you. All we need right now is something to kindle the sparks that are generating in this thread. Starting small is good because it is easier to manage and mold later when the ball gets rolling.

    The thread may be going in circles but the fact we are discussing this is a step in the right direction in my mind. I actually had fears that the thread would be locked / deleted right away when I made it due to the sensitive nature of the subject!

    -----

    Also a thought occurred:

    Could a mass PM be sent to every member that has submitted a file to the STEX asking for consent to have their work included in a modpack? That way it would only contain files from those who are fine with it. Just an idea for now, just like everything in this discussion thread.

     

    A somewhat more harsh action would be something like "Unless you state otherwise, your creations could be used in a Modpack". I got a similar thing at my work pertaining to the use of photos or stories of me in corporate social media accounts. The difference is that employees are active and have a chance to respond quickly, whereas here we have a ton members who have gone dormant over the years.

     

     

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    5 hours ago, Tyberius06 said:

    You are not constructive... What would be nice from you to help this process, not blocking it

    On this, I think a counter-point is needed. If you look at madhatter106's files, he has already packaged them into what, for my mind at least and what I've described a couple of times, is a mini, quasi mod-pack. He has a few dozen or so themed packs each with around a dozen buildings, thus making it super easy for any one to get a suite of new stuff. So why would he consent to vague ideas on repacking his files into an unknown quantity?

    Which, incidentally, is a perfect segue:

    4 hours ago, Jasoncw said:

    . I don't know the full details or the current progress, but I do know the admins are working on something like a modpack which I don't think is *exactly* like what is being discussed (and like I said I don't know exactly what they're doing) but which exists within the current framework.

    so, for those proponents of sending out PMs to all content creators saying opt-in/opt-out of this concept by such and such a date, can I suggest that we wait and see what the admins have in store for their version of the mod-pack?

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    13 hours ago, T Wrecks said:

    How's that for helping?

    There were users contributed with excellent content. Then - for unknown reasons - they deleted all their content. Those who were there in time may see a merit. For those who came later to the game, after he had deleted his files, there was no noticeable merit.

    Keep in mind that your argument is only temporarily valid.

    Those who become forgotten can't help the presence. To remember - to dig in ancient libraries to rediscover forgotten knowledge is the only way to keep merit consistent through time.

    If you say - you can read my books as long as I hand it directly out to you, but you aren't allowed to keep them in your public library an hand it out to people by yourself - there is no public merit in this. It's just a nice present you give, to those who are around you. Lucky, who gets a slice of the cake,  unfortunated, who comes late. It's kind, generous, social and noble to share your content, to give it for free like a present to the community. Nothing bad. But if it's a merit can't be decided by the simple fact, it's a free offer.

    Like content not working - still it's a generous act to share, doesn't matter, but you can't say it's a merit to the community. Content not being available is the same as content not working. Everything, to be a merit, must have a future sense/use. Like you teach your children - the merit from all this teaching is, what they carry on, not what they ignored, forgot and dropped. Merit lies in the outcome at the very end of all your doing, not in the present act, the doing itself.

    Or:

    Once I won't be on this planet anymore. If there was any merit in the things I did, will be decided then. When someone else picks it up and carries it on, makes. what once belonged to me, then his own. And if there is no one who cares for what I did, my merit is zero, no matter how generous I was during my lifetime. And if I refuse to hand out the boots I once was wearing to someone else to wear, there is no merit. And if I hand out boots not usable it's the same. Like my thoughts - doesn't count how clever and right and profound and iluminated they are - if you can't use them, if they don't help you, there is no merit in my talking/writing.

    One could say:

    If you expect gratitute and respect, you're making presents. If you expect a future merit, you let it go, lay your belongings in other peoples hands so they make further use of them. Like teaching of children. You can't keep it yourself. What you did teach your children are the belongings of your childrens - it's inside of them, not inside of you. If it remains your posession and doesn't become someone elses posession - you tought a big cabbage and nothing else. If you insist on thoughts being your own, it's impossible to share, they must be in common to be shared. So I regard my post as a present - I'm doing something generous to the community by offering my precious thoughts - doesn't this sound funny to you? Isn't all this talking to understand each other, some kind of exchange rather than making presents?

    One terrible thing are the trillions of unfinished, abbandoned bats whe have seen through the years. Would you agree, there is no merit in them regarding the community? Apart from the author was a nice guy/girl, abort from he was generous and friendly. He/never had the idear to hand out his belongings to someone else to carry his work on. Unfinished presents = presents never made = no presents.

    That's why we are going around in circles. There's power involved, or lust - the lust power creates.

    When my daughter was still a child we used to visit my mother together at the weekend. After dinner I had a smoke on the veranda. The veranda door you could open only from the inside. Now to my daughter it caused incredible fun to lock me out while I had a smoke there. She locked the door, stood behind the window and wanted me to ask: please, please, please. And the more I made sad faces and folded my hands and made gestures of begging she became more exited and delighted. It was a game that caused her really great fun, she smiled, grinned and enjoyed ...

    ... her power.

    This is a heavy thing. You must cut your own lust, your own joy - to let things go. it's not simply giving away power, authority, control. With opening the door again and letting me in - my daughter also had to cut her fun to set me free. She had to overcome her lust, her enjoyment for me being released.

    Me, personally, I can't support those arguments, strengthen the thought, there is a merit in controling those doors. Shure it would have been generous from my daughter, when she had opened the door from time to time to give something - some water, something to eat, another cigarette, well, some generous present, - but the move needed here, isn't on the same instance/level of the 'social game',  not inside the game, but a change of game. What you do as a generous acting inside the game can't be regarded as a merit to change the rules.

    You can't say my daughter did a merit to me, nor by closing, nor by opening the door again, nor by controlling the door in generous way and passing stuff to me, to make me feel comfortable as her 'prisoner'. To stop the game, to drop her possition as rulemaker and doorman (doorgirl?), to recognize the circle is broken not on the game level but by changing the game, this might be the merit here. 

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    In order to end the endless discussion of sharing plugins problem and without disrespect any opinions, I've created whitepaper on sharing plugins. You can find it here:

    or, if you're want direct link, you can go to the really long URL: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qFRcXjq0sczpSrzz1hR6TlcV4jR7EAquiVL5mRXZ4-M/edit?usp=sharing.

    Thanks.

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    Thank you, ordinaire user may have lost any clue how things will work out ! Plain language you install a BAT in your SimCity 4 Plugins Main folder or optional in a assinged UserDir Plugins folder, the Apt will look or all dependency are in that respective folder or not, if so install these ! I´d like to make this directory location freedom as advanced user may have several UserDir instalations, aswell using different terrain, water or tree mod´s installed.  Discusion of a centralized or decentralized database per member may be obsolete in this way as the member decides where files maybe applyied !

    Democraticly, we can vote for any future way distribution of files. Choices must as above mentioned be crystal clear:

    - Old and New system side by side on a directory based system Bat´s, Mod´s, MMP,s excluded, dependency only auto download, so still freedom to choose  where to install files !

    - New system only one single download directory central or decentralized database, technical mayhem !

    Personaly I´d like to keep the choice to the member, download the old fashioned way or go for the Apt way, choice to be made in the member profile !

    Sincerely yours,

    kschmidt

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    Sharing plugins isn't dead. Support us by voting and share your thoughts here: 

    The topic isn't duplicate of this topic. Instead, it's companion. Thanks.

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