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Moses Zal

Creating Standard Health Effectiveness over Avg. Age

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I've been working recently on LEProp 1.62 

to customize stats of custom buildings for personal usage of course. I want to create a "health effectiveness over average age" that is the same as that of the maxis Large Medical Center. According to http://www.wiki.sc4devotion.com/index.php?title=Large_Medical_Center, the LMC's mentioned stat is  0.0, 8.0, 100.0, 8.0 . If I want to copy this stat by using LEprop, how would the graph in the attachment be like? I guess I'm gonna need 4 points, but I have no idea where to plot them.

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Why would you need 4 points?

If you want the exact same "curve", you already have it.  Each point on the graph is the intersection of 2 numbers.  So the stat only has 2 points.  At Age 0, hospital effectiveness is 8 (0.0, 8.0); at age 100, hospital effectiveness is 8 (100.0, 8.0).  In other words, effectiveness is the same across all ages.

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  • Original Poster
  • 3 minutes ago, twalsh102 said:

    Why would you need 4 points?

    If you want the exact same "curve", you already have it.  Each point on the graph is the intersection of 2 numbers.  So the stat only has 2 points.  At Age 0, hospital effectiveness is 8 (0.0, 8.0); at age 100, hospital effectiveness is 8 (100.0, 8.0).  In other words, effectiveness is the same across all ages.

    :D:D:D I don't know why didn't I see it that way in the first place

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    Any property that shows as Stat1 vs. Stat2 is going to result in a "curve" on a graph.  Most often you will only see 2 points (4 values).  But sometimes it gets more complicated.

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    Although generally non-helpful, would it be possible to use this property to simulate Birth Centers and Pediatric/Children's Hospitals, where health care effectiveness of the hospital drops off dramatically after a certain age (say, from 8 to 2 after age 25)?

    The net gameplay effect may be deleterious (or simply unobserved, as the game doesn't display such information in a usable manner usually), but I suspect this is part of the claim about the Simgoober old-people's healthcare centers treating Senior citizens more effectively? Or is that total flavor text with no meaning whatsoever (as can be common with SG's stuff)?

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    I don't see why this property couldn't be used to simulate that effect.  After all, something similar is already done with education facilities, where certain types of facilities are targeted at certain age groups.

    However, having said that, I think any effort to try and implement such would be a waste of time.  The issue is that Maxis created a segmented education system from the get-go.  They didn't attempt to do so with healthcare.  So every health facility has the exact same effectiveness over a Sim's entire lifespan.

    BTW, since you mentioned SimGoober, I decided to check his stuff.  The only one I could find is the BSC Retirement Home that is part of the SG_Health_BSC package.  The property in question has the same values as every other health facility I checked.

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    On 3/16/2017 at 0:06 AM, twalsh102 said:

    The property in question has the same values as every other health facility I checked.

    Sounds like there's a systematic override project out there for someone who understands this stuff. That opens the question: What curves would make more sense? I suppose that simple clinics would provide moderate care to the strongest age band (e.g. 15-40) and taper off toward the ends. The most advanced (and expensive) facilities would be both more effective in level and cover a broader age range. A specialized facility might be a less expensive way to provide better care over a large area for a targeted (and presumably under-served) age range, perhaps supplementing clinics in a town not big enough for a top-class medical center.

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    Could something like this be done?  Probably.  Does it make sense to do so, just because we can?  I'm not so sure.  Unlike medical facilities, education facilities are fairly easy to define in the area of effectiveness vs. age.  Medical facilities, not so much.

    Just looking at the types of medical facilities I've found:  clinic, doctor's office, emergency care clinic, small hospital, large hospital, dental clinic, cosmetic surgery clinic, cardiac hospital, children's hospital, cancer hospital, private clinic, psychiatric hospital, retirement home.  Yes, some of these are going to be more effective at certain types of treatment, but trying to develop reasonable curves for effectiveness vs. age for the different types of facility would a) be daunting task; b) probably lead to somewhat unrealistic curves in order to differentiate; c) cause the necessity to go back and mod not only the Maxis healthcare facilities, but every other one that was ever created; and d) not really provide much of a benefit to game play for the massive effort involved.  How does one define a type of medical facility by the ages it would most effectively treat?  For most medical facilities in RL (with certain obvious exceptions), effectiveness is more a function of specialization/expertise and staffing, rather than age of patient.

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  • Original Poster
  • @Fantozzi
    I totally agree to your point. I should have explained to what extent I strive for realism. I want a game that makes a combination between realism and challenge. The only thing that is bothering me about hospital mods is that they don't give an insight about how they came up with these numbers. Even though this bothers me, I am not in a place to ask for it from the modders because what they are doing is more than appreciated. I think despite maxis countless mistakes in this game, they did a great job with creating a game that is challenging but not frustrating. So I trust most of the numeric values they gave.

     

    When I see a modded hospital, I try to compare it to maxis LMC size to give it a logical patient capacity. Regarding coverage, I try to give it from 1 to 2 kilometers area radius because anything less than that can't exist in real life even if the city suffers from traffic jams. Regarding all the other numbers, I convert them based on LMC formulas. For instance, if LMC has a patient capacity of 3,000 and a local funding of 1,000§, then I always divide the patient capacity by 3 to get the local funding for the modded hospital.

     

    I know many players won't agree with me. But the reason I am satisfied with this is that I liked the flaw of the game with LMC. My problem is with the same appearance of the several hospitals that are built next to each others in the center of this city, my problem isn't with LMC numeric values. So I looked for bigger custom hospitals, gave them patient capacity by comparing the bigger hospital size to the LMC's size, and gave the Large custom hospital numeric values based on LMC's values through cross multiply.  

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    Although most hospital complexes in RL are much larger than in the game, most serve significantly larger populations over a wider area. Consider where I used to live, 5 minutes from the SD Children's Hospital; the entire complex is probably over 200 acres, but serves probably an area equivalent to 5 or 6 large city tiles (actually more, but we'll run with this number of local coverage) and hundreds of thousands of residents.

    So most modders use something called the PIM-X to help determine capacity, but with plopped buildings balance in these numbers is not as important. Consider that most medicine in SC4 is socialized and universal; everyone has access. Hence the hospitals with 0 cost were meant to simulate fully private endeavors. The same reason many make abnormally large hospital radii is for the same reason; IRL they are not particularly large at all. Fortunately with the lack of an agent based simulation, no Sims will experience flow lock that prevents them from getting the care they need in a large radii, though you may experience an overwhelming number of patients in larger cities.

    One should remember that the MAXIS numbers are often arbitrary, and were designed for a gameplay perspective, not realism, and were based on a traffic simulator that stifled growth so that cities could never be seriously large without great effort on the player's part. Consider that the standard elementary school serves 500 students, but is only on a 1/3 acre lot (32x48 meters). In contrast, schools in California that serve 500 students are often located on sites between 2 (very small) and 13 (larger end) acres (5 to 8 seems to be the average). That's roughly 12 tiles a side (144 tiles)! which Maxis clearly thought too large for the game, despite the lack of realism in their scaling.

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  • Original Poster
  • @APSMS

    I believe that if EA were serious about SC4, they would have done much much better regarding the challenge of realism vs gameplay. But actually that's what EA is all about, releasing incomplete games and promising the player base with solutions in the next release instead of fixing their product. I think SC4's rating on Steam is too much overrated. People who actually recommend SC4 to others, it's the package of SC4 + modds that they recommend not the game as a standalone. The game has too many bugs and mistakes that makes it unplayable by itself. The glory this game is still enjoying even after more 14 years of its release is because of its idea which EA didn't invest at all, the modding community's dedication and the ease of modding it.

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