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Combining my ideas (6 wealth levels, complex economy, growth stages)

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After reading a ton, and playing a range of games, I have come to finalize my ideas into 1 consistent idea with the various aspects working together well. See my previous threads to see each idea separate (and in more detail). This would most likely be mostly implemented in a mod that I will work on.

I think that there should be noticeable differences in the appearance of each type of building based off occupancy type (more complex than just RCI), growth stage (single tenant/household detached with yard parking lot versus ultra-tall skyscraper), wealth level (there could be 4 normal tax brackets with those making under a certain amount only paying sales tax and those making a certain amount bringing in money to the city in different ways), and city (or district) wide architecture style (such as Art Deco/NYC 1930's). Buildings within the same style (usually in the same district) with only slightly different statistics (such as R$$/R$$$ condominiums with one being mostly R$$ and the other mostly R$$$, or exclusively residential vs ground floor retail) would look very similar and the variations between those with small changes in demographics would only be slightly more different visually than variations upon buildings with the same statistics (within the same style/tileset).

There should be 15 growth stages for residential and office, 12 for retail/commercial and hotels, 9 for industry, 3 for agriculture and forestry. Government zones would have a limit of growth stage 12 unless government bureaucracy is combined with private sector offices.

That way there would be 3 growth stages per "density." There will be detached single family/household/tenant/company, low rise, mid rise, high rise, and ultra-tall. Ultra-talls would be special landmarks and exceptional growables that must have residential or office as at least 1/3 of the occupancy. Let's say we have a hotel complex with the lowest floors being shops some residential units and some office space, 1/2 could be hotel, 1/6 could be commercial, 1/6 residential, and 1/6 offices.

There would be 6 wealth levels of residents, 4 wealth levels of office, 5 wealth levels of retail, 5 wealth levels for hotels (the star system), 4 categories of industry (extraction, refining, manufacturing, and high tech) with variation in quality of products (to sell to retail) and wealth of industries. Generally, higher levels of industry require higher educated workers and wealthier businesses require higher educated workers and pay higher (thus the workers get higher wealth levels).

The education levels would be completely illiterate uneducated, preschool, elementary school, middle school, high school, community college/trade school, undergraduate university, graduate university and professional/doctorate+post doctorate educational facilities. Preschool gives a small boost to education for toddlers. Elementary school does not require preschool and teaches children. Middle school requires elementary school but can teach children or teens. High school requires middle school and teaches teens and young adults. Standard community colleges require high school education and teach young adults, adults, and mature adults. Community colleges with basic education or high school equivalent programs only require elementary (basic) or middle school (high school equivalent) educated students and accept teenagers. Community colleges with trade/vocational departments boost industry and those with health (offering degrees such as pre-med and nursing) boost hospitals thus health. Undergraduate universities accept high school graduates and community college graduates of young adult age or higher (so young adult, adult, mature adult, and senior) with community college graduates graduating sooner. Graduate universities have the same age requirements as undergraduate universities but require students to have completed undergraduate university. The last level of education is only available to adults, mature adults, and seniors who already have graduate degrees. Post doc is very rare and ties in with skill level.

Jobs would have a range of education and wealth level for new hires. Initial education level (when moved in) depends on initial wealth level as does skill level (think Tropico 3/4). Those that move in with no money (R¢) start completely illiterate, R$ with preschool, R$$ with elementary, R$$$ with middle school , R$$$$ with high school, R$$$$$ with community college, (keystone) elite residents R$$$$$$ with undergraduate university (Bill Gates never completed a Bachelor's degree but let's let that slide). Children born in the city limits must receive education in the city and even those who recently moved in can gain education (except for the impoverished and working poor who move in as adults without elementary school education but they don't move into successful cities). Certain games have all who move in start as uneducated, which means that most who move in as adults die uneducated, my system is a little more forgiving (for cities with community colleges).

Construction of buildings requires construction materials which can be brought in on construction trucks from outside the city or manufactured in the city from forestry, quarrying, and mining industry (which means that an outside connection is essential in the beginning. Moving vans bringing in new residents come from outside the city. After a while, a city can become self-sufficient with natural population growth and sustainable extraction, refining, recycling, refining, and manufacturing of everything needed for the city but export economies are highly profitable and wealthy importers can also be profitable. The most profitable city would be a wealthy, educated, sustainable city with little-to-no imports and moderate exports.

A wide range of products could be made in the city. Extraction industry would include agriculture, forestry, mines, drills/pumps, and quarries. Processing and refining could take raw materials or recycled materials and make them into more useful products such as fuels, metals, shelf-stable food, lumber, plastics, construction materials, paper (or cardboard), and chemicals. Manufacturing would make heavy machinery, vehicles, and a wide range of consumer goods (different consumer goods would be demanded by different demographics and businesses) each product would have 3 different quality levels (basic/shoddy, average, and durable/luxury). High tech industry would computer chips and things that use them. They could take vehicles and improve their quality level and the best high tech vehicle factory could take durable/luxury vehicles and make them self-driving. These would use a better traffic system (assuming perfect knowledge), be able to reroute, have higher capacity, and would never get into car accidents. In a city with many self-driving autos and some regular commuters, accidents at busy intersections with commuters in basic cars could be high (since they would not have the reaction time to function in high-speed, high efficiency, high capacity intersections, unless the intersections were designed with normal commuters in mind instead of self-driving autos). If a timeline is implemented, then flying cars and drones would add new (vertical) lanes of traffic. Let's say you have a turn of the 22nd Century city with high education and a bunch of high quality vehicles upgraded with high quality high tech factories, the normal roads would be reserved for pedestrians and cyclists (and emergency vehicles or heavy trucks), glowing skyroads (think Cloud Atlas Neo Seoul) would have a lower lane for hover commuter cars and hover trucks, 1 lane for drones and hover emergency vehicles, and 1 lane for flying cars. Vehicles treated as aircraft would not be constrained to infrastructure. In the early stages, these would be limited to helicopters and airplanes. Eventually flying vehicles would be common such as delivery drones or emergency vehicles and drones. Commuters and heavy trucks would be limited to the hovering self-driving variety.

Utilities would be electricity, garbage (recycling, and compost included), water, sewage, natural gas, and telecommunications. Emergency and civic services would be education, healthcare, death-care, civil peace, police, firefighting, greenery, and leisure (with some leisure buildings growing in retail/commercial).

The demand for types of products, shops, and services change with age, wealth and education level. This can be further be impacted by the presence of cultural, sports, entertainment, ecological, and religious happiness providing buildings (let's call them leisure). College educated middle-class workers who frequent cultural and ecological leisure buildings have a far different demand for products as high-school educated middle-class workers who frequent entertainment and sports leisure. Education and leisure would determine the "political leanings" of the populace more than employment (though different jobs have different effects on "political leanings"). If happiness is broken down into several forms of satisfaction and unsatisfied populace votes you out of office (giving you an automatic losing screen) or are more likely to dissent/protest/foster unrest, then "political leanings" could be an important aspect of the game. A banker who goes to entertainment (bars, clubs, casinos, etc) leisure most of the time would be very different from an artist who goes to cultural and ecological leisure. Undergraduate Universities might have a chance of spawning "activists" (or lobbyists) and their actions would depend on their political leanings, which would depend mostly on leisure services they go to. Parks would make them environmentalists, churches would make them charity workers or conservative activists, museums would make them common progressive activists (advocating education, equality, or lowered police presence), stadiums would make them health/fitness activists or business lobbyists, bars/clubs would make them leisure advocates or business lobbyists. However, undergrad universities would not need to have this function and even if this is implemented, there should still be places that offer undergraduate education without generating activists.

What do you think?


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Some things can be broken down further.


For example, there is a major difference between someone who prefers McDonald's and someone who prefers to eat at an independent gourmet burger restaurant.


Perhaps instead of churches, there can be generic "places of worship" for political correctness reasons (or if churches have to be included, then synagogues, mosques, temples, etc. would have to be added in as well).


Likewise, many major cities have ethnic enclaves and there can be two ways to implement it: a society of politically-correct generic but different races or one reflecting the real world with architecture to match the predominant ethnicity of the neighbourhood.


Even sports attract different demographics.  A football (soccer) stadium would attract a different demographic than a golf course would.  Even ice hockey and basketball attract different demographics, despite some cities having both sports played in the same venue at the professional level (such as the Staples Center in Los Angeles, home to one professional ice hockey and two professional basketball teams).

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  • Original Poster
  • I called it religious leisure for the generic term but that is an awkward and inaccurate name. I think that venues should have a category (ecological/destination/vacation, spiritual/religious, luxury services, cultural/educational, sports, entertainment, and possibly adult or blends) as well as targeted age group, wealth level, and education level. Restaurants (food retail/vendor plus leisure/service provider) would have wealth levels as well as how family friendly/kid friendly they are. A family-friendly diner of the same wealth level as a bar and grill would attract different clientele (families with children versus adults without children). A gourmet burger restaurant would be a middle class restaurant and a fast food chain would be a lower class restaurant. If health is considered in regards to food, the gourmet burgers are less healthy than groceries or health restaurants but a step above fast food.

    Products could be broken down by use (hardware, garden-care, appliances, furniture, cosmetics/hygeine, clothing, fashion accessories (a hat is equivalent to a watch is equivalent to a necklace), food, office/school supplies, computers, games/toys, communication devices, home decoration, cookware, etc) and each product would have 3 quality levels (or 3 strength/durability levels and 3 luxury levels).

    Ecological, destination, and holiday vacation venues work in combination with hotels, tourism, and demand for vacations. The 5 stars of standard hotels (and possible landmark 6 and 7 star hotels) would only change service quality and price. Tourists and business travelers have different needs so business hotels and tourist hotels should grow in different places. The different wealth levels of the residents affect their desired days off and luxury of vacations with some wiggle room based off job, political leaning, and spending at the destination. Casino Resorts with nearby luxury shops and restaurants would be highly profitable but stays there would be shorter than stays in beach resorts with nearby "local businesses" because of costs for the tourists.

    I read somewhere about having companies with hidden traits. They could be tied not only to typical workplaces like industry and offices but also retail and leisure. Maybe each company has a preferred starting/founding business and layer spread. I could see a nightclub taking over party supply factories and warehouses to provide for their clubs, offices for headquarters and promotions, and restaurants so they can diversify and expand hours and clientele. I could see a farm take over factories, warehouses, restaurants, grocers, and of course offices but such a food conglomerate could also start from a grocer, restaurant, or fertilizer plant (with different outcomes in economic, cultural/political and ecological impacts because the traits are different). If media is implemented, it could provide news for the player and news or entertainment to residents, media conglomerates could take over different media platforms as well as hotels and retail. FYI, all companies that expand would need office space of their own instead of just utilizing generic office services from common offices.


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    your "ideas" are practically impossible to play without really high-performance machine, unless you'd use astounding oversimplification of traits and patterns - and decide which half of ideas you'lll be willing to dump


    RCI redefined:

    - too complex for current generation - RC combined means, you cant make gated community or walmart, if it "forces" to make stores with residential - or it'll go the other way - you'll still have inefficient single walmart on RC spot in the middle of tall residential district and no way of moving it away cause of 20 year lease



    - youve missed elders(physical workers/farmers) going to college or highschool when in 60-70+ - another group, that IRL is growing pretty fast lately

    - also ineducated workers with single qualification - like operating crane, steamroller, forklift or just being good electrician/plumber, gets more money than "R$$$$$ with community college, " ,of course its another big demographic group - which is kinda anti-green and anti-high tech, statistically speaking

    -also community college graduates go to low paying jobs, statistically, so that many $ is too much - take into account countless menial office job, teachers or city administration(all of which are required IRL and ignored in city sim) , unless you see them as "technical school" graduates or whatever they're called (MIT-like), THEN they would work in, or improve performance, cost-effectivenes of industrial regions



    self-sustaining cities is Utopia - dont try and make sth like this, it wont happen,

    you should  change "export" into "services and moderate export", also moderate import, cause any manufacturer requires imported goods and with the variety of goods you're planning on implementing, you wont be able to make all of them without making 100x100km city.


    If you really want to error-check your ideas, first of all, try to play in democracy 3, and see for yourself what you're planning to do or expand from - half of your ideas are in this game.

    Then, and only then, check if implementing "all of it into your world, single traits set combined with single "person" in the city, living in single condominium or skyscraper, in diferent district with different communication available, differnt job, interests and route-finding for desired goal" would really work at 30fps, without slowing time in-game for 60 thousand (even with oversimplification its around 3-5k)  of "independent citizens"


    that's why we have so simplistic city building games - you just wouldnt run your ideas on modern PCs


    There are of course some ideas that are easy to implement :

    - since electricity goes from building to building, landline would go also - in post 2000 era, addons on buildings that would look like cell towers - just see for yourself "cell towers in new york" on google(or bing) photos,

    - you have natural gas  in majority of city buildings all over the world - that's what you use to heat water on the stove - aditional fire hazard 

    also from natural gas with few aditional, but v-easy availble compunds you make all kinds of pesticides or fertilizers


    - also there are different climate zones and seasons - basically all games dont take that into account

      - winter - higher energy usage(or natural gas) - also higher polution from coal burning in single homes 

        additional probability of broken water pipes in the suburbs and freezing homeless

     - summer - much higher water consumption with slighty higher wastes(evaporation ), also more energy used - as in climatization

     - autumn - much more sick people, higher gains in clothes stores

    - spring - higher water level from melting snow could breach the dam or just flood nice chunk of land

     - cold climate - overall higher power usage, higher food consumption

     - warm climate - higher water usage, higher maintenance cost of parks

     - moderate continental - everything can happen really - from +35C(+95F) in summer to -30C(-20F) in winter - higher road maintenance cost


    also erosion near water - v. simple water flow simulation could make erosion effect on one side and acumulation of dirt in another place a little further dow the river, which would require city adjustment every few in-game "decades"

    post-industrial terrain would require scrubing before any farmer would even consider buying/renting that lot

    more mine-able resources as- salt(duh), half of mendeleev chart - titanium(where the hell did you got all that for durable equipment), rare earth minerals(how do you make anything high-tech without those - you clearly import them), sodium, calcium, TWO or more different coals, "gravel, stone, dirt or sand, water" are required for road-making if you go for full realism


    also  building times of every building - skyscraper is one year minimum, single house can be made in a week, but rarely(months usually), highways and roads after hitting set population should take time to build also



    Wanna make sth different? you could make game a lot more challenging with simple variables that you encounter IRL every day, month, year - dont try to implement sth that you "think" would make game more complex or challenging, stick with sth that'll make it a real city- and sim-managing simulator . Just not expanding simulated citizens models, that were made just as complex as yours by other developers, then simplified by them to the point where game performance level for current PC generation was achieved 


    byebye :)

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    Have to admit I didn't read all of this text, but speaking of professions did anyone consider the trades?  Trades have grades of Apprentice, Journeyman, Master and Trademaster (as in The Master Cabinet Maker, who would be the official arbiter of standards in the trade).

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  • Original Poster
  • 1. I did not suggest mixed use. It is however, an option already in the game. I don't want to use that option because I think I will use Euclidean zoning most.

    2. If Tropico 3-5 can support couple thousand agents with more detailed simulation than I suggest and Tilted Mill games can support cities with thousands of agents and tens of thousands of population as detailed as Tropico, I don't see how my suggestion is harder.

    Here is what I think a simulated person agent (henceforth referred to as a citizen) should be like:

    has an age that goes up by 4 every simulated year

    has an education level that goes up with access to appropriate educational facilities

    has a role (such as a specific job for a worker or a specific school for a student) if an elder is ever without a job, they retire, never to enter the workforce or student body again, consuming resources thus boosting the retail economy

    has a wealth level (which depends on job and conditions when existence started (birth or move in) in the city)

    has a political leaning that changes with visitation to various buildings (and the stronger the leaning is, the more it effects desired job and venues)

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  • Original Poster
  • A political leaning would merely change the preference for employer, products, and services as well as change the priority of what issues the citizen cares about most. Most people wouldn't mind dirty power plants providing their electricity as long as they don't have to deal with pollution. However, environmentalists take issue with any pollution or waste and even in a good city will protest incinerators, nuclear power plants, and gasoline cars.


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    Let's not forget we are constructing a game here not a city hall tool.  It has to be acceptable to the same people who purchase games like C:S.

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  • Original Poster
  • Have I mentioned that all the ideas not implemented in the game officially will be worked on by me (possibly in collaboration with others) as a mod? The political issue is the least important part of my mod ideas because I could make a mod that diversifies industrial products and consumer goods and the purchasers of those goods could merely be influenced by age, wealth, and education.




    EDIT: Here is a list of products and goods I can think of adding into the game:

    Staple crops (starch)
    Livestock and dairy
    Textile/fiber crops
    Luxury crops
    Canned/processed/convenience food
    Health food
    Luxury meals (frozen or prepared)
    Timber (logs)
    Lumber (planks)
    Engineered Wood Products
    Biomass and Waste (sawdust)
    Decorative Plants
    Fibers (for textiles, like Rayon)
    Crude Oil
    Kerosene/Airplane Fuel
    Iron Ore
    Precious Metal Ore
    Rare Earth Ore
    Precious Metal (Gold)
    Electronics Metal (Copper)
    Rare Earth Metal
    Advanced Alloy
    Possibly Uranium
    Heavy vehicles
    Commuter Vehicles
    Luxury Vehicles
    Fashion Accessories (hats, jewelry, watches, glasses, etc.)
    Household Appliances
    Toys and Games
    Construction Materials
    Kitchen products/goods (dishes, pans, silverware)
    Bedding (mattresses, blankets)
    Fitness Equipment
    High Tech:
    Automated Automobiles
    Advanced Fitness Equipment
    Home Entertainment Systems
    Communications Devices
    Wearable Technology
    Gaming Devices
    Aerospace Products
    Advanced Construction Materials
    Research Materials
    Office Equipment
    Advanced Appliances
    Advanced Fuel
    (generic) Electronics (or components)
    I also think that seasons and weather should be implemented and I will get around to making a mod for that after complex economy (probably before politics).
    About pollution, there should be several types of pollution:
    Ground Pollution
    Water Pollution
    Air Pollution
    Noise Pollution
    There should also be other factors to bring down land value such as eyesores (ugly buildings or very bright night-lighting). Radioactivity would only be implemented after nuclear energy and/or hazardous waste dumps are implemented and it would slowly lower every year, with 3/4 of the reduction turning into ground pollution (the other 1/4 of the reduction disappears). Ground pollution should also have more levels but at the same time dissipate extremely slowly on its own, which could be sped up with help from plants or technology. Air pollution would spread with the wind and dissipate as it spreads. Rain would lower air pollution and hot, humid weather without rain would reduce dissipation (which when combined with lack of wind could turn warm summer days hazardous to the health from cars alone. If regions over 2,500 square kilometers are ever implemented, then there could be a global (or rather regional) "greenhouse gas" statistic that would change weather patterns (and natural disasters) in large, polluting regions (making an assumption that half the developed planet has similar greenhouse gas emissions as the playable region), however large regions would work best with multiplayer (maybe have up to 20 players each start with a 4 square kilometer tile of land, buying more tiles as city grows in population and treasury).

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    Skimmed through the wall of text.

    One thing that i agree with is construction should require resources I think road construction should employ labour and that if materials can not be found locally they must be imported.

    I agree on higher complexity regarding retail and citizen shopping

    I think instead of wealth levels Sims should just have an income and expenditures and be categorised in whatever bracket you wish to use you could rename wealth brackets say pauper to powee ranger for fun or just use a basic working middle and landed class division

    I think buildings should reflect their owners tastes. Culture and individuality would be complicated to implement in a game but basic types of people could be atracted to certain residences just as different wealth types are with a randomness added

    So a sim could be spawned as a random type if person within the spectrum of people who woukd consider living in the residence

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  • Original Poster
  • Thank you, Mark_Kochan for the feedback. I never considered making roads require labour because roads would have to be one of the first things built in a city. Maybe certain early roads could be built without labour or materials but more advanced roads would need them. If roads did require labour and/or materials to build, then it would probably be best for there to already be a preexisting connection to the outside world (train tracks or highways).


    Renaming wealth brackets and changing the number of brackets (by changing how wide or narrow the category would be) would be interesting and possibly a lot of fun but I think that the bracket(s) with the lowest 15% of earners would still be classed as impoverished and would not have to pay any income tax (but could be subject to property tax and sales tax unless they squat and shop solely at grocers) and the top 1% would not be affected by the main bracket granularity (because they have to be extremely wealthy, extremely rare, only work as the CEO in an exceptional workplace, and only live on a specially designated piece of land that is 100x100 meters).


    I thought this game would have citizens move in (or are born) and be at least semi-permanent (don't change names, remain able to be found, and statistics still be able to be found regardless of whether they are an agent (traveling) or not (inside a building) until they move out or die. Therefore, I would think that citizens would not be spawned by houses but rather houses would be bought (or built) by citizens. Once a house is built, it might be customized by subsequent owners depending on wealth level and tastes (political leaning plus random variation) with the main structure keeping the same geometry. That way, booms then busts where a middle-class neighborhood suddenly attracts some wealthy inhabitants then a couple years later property values drop and a bunch of poor people move into the city would have a typical middle-class home (that already has a yard) first get expansions of a detached garage, another story (possibly with a dormer as well), possibly a nice little guest room over the garage, fresh paint, and a nice garden then a couple of years later fall into disrepair, holding 4 poor households instead of 1 middle class household in the beginning or the 1 upper-class household; the middle-class house remodeled into a modest mini-mansion would then be a small apartment complex. The props would change as well, the garden would be gone (possibly replaced with clothes lines) and the grass would turn to pavement. If the only thing that changes is wealth level, then those would be the extent of the changes, if density increases by more than 1 growth stage at a time, a whole new building would be built. If the example building (suburban R$$ house into modern R$$$ minimansion into R$ apartment) falls further into disrepair (more poor people move into the city after a generation), it will hold 6 households of working poor (a family of 6 or 7 n poverty) and what started as grass (then turned to pavement) gets replaced with dirt, a clapboard room gets added and the textures change to make it look even more run down. If the neighborhood gets a renewal with an increase by 2 wealth levels (from R$ to R$$$ or R¢ to R$$) or an increase by 1 wealth level and 1 growth stage, that building gets torn down and a nice new one takes it place.



      Edited by OcramSeattle  

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    Which came first, the road or the resident?  Seems there would have to be some kind of minimum cow track that would be improved.  In one game I play, initially you don't need roads (Banished).  Getting around is slow until you at least build dirt roads, but to do so you must have assigned some of your bannies as builders.

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  • Original Poster
  • If the question is whether roads or agents should be first, I think roads should be first. A basic highway (like Route 66) and railroad (and possibly a harbour) could be the first connection to the outside world and cheap dirt roads would have no requirements of workers or materials. Eventually, upgrading the highway and railroad as well as building normal suburban and city roads would require labour, materials, and time. I think that agents should only be able to exist on infrastructure with pathways/routes (or near to them if they are being remade), which would include pedestrian paths, train tracks, dirt roads, city streets, alleys, city roads, avenues, highways, etc. Once an agent has moved from a path (which could include surface parking lots, pedestrian paths, and possibly other parts of buildings designated for pathing, such as overpasses), it would become part of the statistical simulation (unless I am mistaken) with its data kept (so names and other tags don't change). Agents would first come from outside (people moving in and products being imported), eventually certain agents could be generated by buildings (products from industry and babies from housing and hospitals). Utilities should be strictly statistical (like with Cities: Skylines) with either unlimited capacity and range or possibly with limitations (but only if Anzelm and Michael want to have tiers of capacity by pipes and power lines, which I hope not). That way, offices would not be able to be built or upgraded without a connection but as long as they are provided telecommunication services (which means they have access to the electrical grid of a city with a telecom provider), would not require workers to commute to them.


    I also think that zones should be able to be as deep as the depth of a square of farmland in Cities XL at 90% size (or larger).





    This would be the growth stages for residential:

    R1: Single Occupancy Detached Homes

    stage 1: country homes, including settler's cottages and country estates

    stage 2: outer suburban (exurban) homes with large yards (not as large yards as stage 1)

    stage 3: inner suburban homes with small yards

    stage 4: 2-4 story urban homes with no yards except maybe a small patch of lawn

    R2: Multi-family lowrises

    stage 5: 2-3 story duplexes and triplexes with yards

    stage 6: duplexes and triplexes with small parking lots and possibly tiny amounts of greenspace

    stage 7: 3-5 story apartments with parking lots and lawns

    stage 8: wall-to-wall 3-5 story apartments with garage parking (if any)

    R3: Midrise residential

    stage 9: 4-7 story apartments with small parking lots or lawns

    stage 10: 6-9 story wall-to-wall apartments or 7-10 story apartments with small parking lots or lawns

    stage 11: 8-11 story wall-to-wall apartments

    stage 12: 9-12 story wall-to-wall apartments

    R4: Highrise residential

    stage 13: 11-14 story apartments with parking lots or garages + greenspace

    stage 14: 11-15 story wall-to-wall apartments or 15-20 story apartments with parking lots+plazas or garages and sizeable greenspace

    stage 15: 16-24 story wall-to wall apartments or 25-30 story apartments with garages and sizeable greenspace

    stage 16: 30-39 story apartments with variable levels of greenspace and plazas

    R5: Skyscrapers

    stage 17: 40-55 floors

    stage 18: 55-75 floors

    stage 19: 75-100 floors

    stage 20: over 100 floors

    Similar settings could apply to offices. Commercial and hotels would be limited to stage 15. Industry would be limited to stage 10. Agriculture and forestry would be limited to stage 5.

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  • Original Poster
  • I think that the lowest tier of each kind of transportation should be possible to be made without labor or materials and intercity connections be available on new maps (built by the country). That would mean something akin to Route 66 and a basic 1-track rail would already be there and the mayor could build dirt roads and zone low density along them to attract workers and expand and upgrade from there.




    Furthermore, height restrictions and requirements for parking, greenspace, and setbacks would also limit density. Height restriction to 20 short (office or apartment) floors (or 10-15 tall (luxury apartments or high tech industry) floors) that requires parking (that can be in garages) and at least 8 meters setback from the road, and greenspace anywhere (whether it is in the front or on top of the roof), the maximum density that can grow there is growth stages 12 to 15, depending on occupant type and wealth. If there is a ton of demand and at least moderately high property values, then the limits will be what will grow there (eventually).

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    I think you have wealth levels wrong (with respect).  Instead of having wealth level depend on education, it should depend on how much money that person has.  They gain money through one of five or so ways:

    • A Job
    • Investments
    • Inherited
    • Stolen (Criminals)
    • Lottery / Gambling

    One of the statistics tracked would be net worth, and this would determine wealth level.  In this way, you can still have a Bill Gates w/o a bachelors.


    Further, there are tons of middle, high, and stupidly high wealth individuals that frequent cheap, fast food. 


    Further, McDonalds is not necessarily less healthy than, say, a steakhouse burger.  They have salads and fruit parfet, too. And there's places like Chipotle, which is fast, and typically pretty healthy (depending on your toppings at least). 


    I think your game (as described) would be better suited to work on a regional level, rather than a city level.  Instead of designing individual roads and zones, the base would be on the neighborhood or village level.  Something inbetwix a city simulator and, say, Civilization in scale.  Maybe instead of a city simulator, it could be a state/province simulator.  Dunno, just think-typing aloud here...

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  • Once a person has moved in, money can be gained and lost but when people first move in, each individual would have some information (based off demand with some randomization). In my system, I guess it is possible to get Bill Gates without a Bachelor’s Degree if he is born within the city and makes his billions while living in the city (or at least simulated region). If money and education could only be gained within the simulated city or region, then every new arrival would arrive dead broke and completely illiterate, which would be bad. If no education is available in a city but there is plenty of economic opportunity, then it might be possible to have an illiterate millionaire. If education is free and easily accessible to everyone, then you might see plenty of well-educated poor folks. I also think that most jobs should have minimum education requirements and have a strong draw to workers already near the wealth level associated with the wage/pay-grade. Having both of these implemented would allow the game to have more realistic distribution of educated workers in more logical positions but still allow over-educated workers to hold jobs that are "beneath them" if there are no jobs available for their desired income.

    That way, demand, desirability, and education of workers could all be factors in upgrading industry (I think each workplace type (including type of input and output resources) should have 3 tiers. The higher tiers pollute the least and create the highest quality product (which ties into what I said earlier about shoddy/basic, average, and durable/luxurious tiers of products) as well as producing more of the product per worker (increased effectiveness and productivity) and using slightly less input material per product (increased efficiency). Profitability of businesses (and the taxes they pay) should depend on sales and costs. A Tier 3 plastic factory would have far higher revenue because it would produce more plastic with a smaller amount of chemicals (and can use petroleum or biological based chemicals for the same product, depending on supply), wouldn't have to pay as high for pollution (because lower pollution output lowers cleanup and healthcare costs), and produce more expensive product (durable quality plastic). However, it would have increased expenses because its workers are paid more and the factory itself requires more maintenance. If the company has a market for its goods (whether local or export), it will do better than before and pay more taxes and complain less if the tax rate is increased.

    Also, I have played most simulators from the scale of an individual household (Sims 1 and 2), to a neighborhood (Banished and Sims 3, though not SimTown or SimsVille), to a single skyscraper (The Tower and the like), to cities (SimCity, LinCity) to regions (SimCity 4, Cities XXL, Cities: Skylines with 25 tiles) to countries (I did not really care for SimCountry) to planet-dominating civilizations (Civilization 4 and 5) and beyond (Spore).


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    Think about the immigrant from some place like India who is a practising physician when he emigrated but winds up driving a taxi in New York because he hasn't passed the qualifying exams to practice in that state.

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  • Original Poster
  • Think about the immigrant from some place like India who is a practicing physician when he emigrated but winds up driving a taxi in New York because he hasn't passed the qualifying exams to practice in that state.

    That seems far too complicated to simulate. In Cities: Skylines all immigrants are uneducated and in my mod, middle-class immigrants would be mostly middle school educated with some variation (lower class would be mostly elementary and upper-middle class would be mostly high school but depending on policies/ordinances/edicts and other conditions, there might be a boost to education level of immigrants). An immigrant who has to work in transportation would just be considered middle-school school educated. Then he could pursue higher education by going to community college then university. If he has children, they would have far more opportunities to learn and become well-educated at an earlier age. I think that it would kind of be cheating if everyone who moves into the city already has a good education. It would just encourage immigration over natural population growth and might even encourage lowered birthrates because if all immigrants arrived fully educated and skilled to work any job, there would be no need for schools if no one is born in the city. That is neither balanced nor realistic. I think that education provided by the city should be vital to its economy. Also, "Political Leanings" would depend on visitation of leisure/service venues so all new arrivals would have no political leanings.




    I might as well write down what I think should draw each kind of immigrant.


    R¢ - They only show up in larger cities with areas with very low residential property values and at least moderate demand for completely illiterate and uneducated workers. R$ can turn into R¢ if they lose all their money and there are places for them to stay (R$ housing with very low land values, parks, and vacant buildings). Once you have them, free zones and unrestricted residential zones with extremely low land values turn into slums. R¢ are also the most likely to become criminals so slums tend to be wretched hives of crime.

    R$ - They show up in any city that demands uneducated workers. Immigrate with "preschool education" (which is similar to kindergarten) which means they have 5-10% skill level and basic understanding of arithmetic and reading. They tend to fill all positions that don't require education. If you provide elementary schools and middle schools regardless of whether you have preschool (because all elementary schools accept all children, even if they never went to preschool), the children of R$ will be better off than their parents. If your city has no education at all (even free preschools) and no job opportunities for them, the children will likely become R¢ or criminals.

    However, even a city without any educational facilities can be without R¢ if it has a large agriculture, forestry, or mining presence. If preschools (free of maintenance costs, cheap construction costs) and private schools (free of construction and maintenance costs to the city) are common in the city, a high amount of class disparity will arise as the poor workers will only be literate enough for manual labor and basic factory assembly line or coal stoking jobs and possibly in retail. This would look like a city before the end of the second industrial revolution. Educational facilities might even unlock with time progression if the calender/clock starts in historic times. If time progression is implemented, then maybe education can speed up unlocks.

    R$$ - They show up in any city that demands elementary school educated workers. If they move in at this level, they cannot pursue higher education but can help their children lead far more successful jobs. They are your most common worker if you have at least a semi-successful city with plenty of educational and economic opportunities. Most citizens born in the city will reach this economic level if there are jobs that pay well for uneducated workers or if there is enough education that they can work common jobs. These include skilled workers, blue collar workers, and the lowest rung of office workers.

    R$$$- They show up in any city that demands middle-school educated workers for jobs that pay well. When they move in, they can work average jobs and go to community college right away. Usually they are born in the city and are at least high school educated if not beyond. If you have a very-well-educated city with a bunch of high paying jobs in highly profitable workplaces, they might be the most common worker in your city. They are the middle-managers, average (educated) office workers, highly-skilled workers, professionals, typical B-list celebrity and academics.

    R$$$$ - These are the wealthiest people you can attract normally. If they move to your city, they start out at high school education. That means they can immediately start working good jobs and pursue higher education at undergrad universities. These people are the highest upper management, executives, A-list celebrities, hedge fund managers, bankers, and politicians.

    Elite R$$$$$ - These are extremely wealthy persons. They only move in if your city has a desirable plot of land (100x100m to 200x200m) set aside for their mansions. You can only attract one foreign elite per city but it is possible to get up to 10 elite households if your city is truly an economic powerhouse. These are the multi-billionaires. When they work, they are the CEOs of the Fortune 500 companies. They often retire early and become philanthropists. They are limited to 2 Elites per Fortune 500 company but some companies might have only 1 Elite. There is a limit of 10 Fortune 500 company headquarters and 10 Elites per region. If you have 5 Fortune 500 companies, each with 2 Elites, you will not be able to have any more. The spouse of the Elite (if the Elite has a spouse), will only work as an R$$$$ and only if there is demand for the job at the company and if the spouse is qualified for the position, otherwise the spouse will not work. Even the mayor's mansion of the wealthiest, most prosperous 10x10km city will be on par with the summer house of the lowest-level (net worth $2 bil) Elite.


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    Some mayors, even of major cities, don't live in mansions.


    For example, Toronto mayor John Tory lives in an upscale condominium in Canada's most expensive shopping district.


    Some Fortune 500 Elites live in condominiums as well.

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    And don't kid yourself about immigrants.  In Canada we encourage persons with high skill trades to come here, and they usually find employment immediately at their level (R$$ or R$$$ in SC4 terms).  One of the big factors in gathering admission points for immigrants is their education and skill levels.


    Marco, your immigrants are what we would call refugees.

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  • Original Poster
  • 1. I am trying to combine ideas from several projects into 1 consistent and logical system for my planned mod of CityBound.

    2. The Mayor's Residence would be a "reward building" that need not be built. I really do NOT want to try to simulate player-owned units of private property for the purpose of the residence of politicians. By default, the mayor would be stuck inside city hall and if regional politics and government is simulated, the regional governor would be stuck inside the state house of the regional governor. If the player built a mayor's house, the player could upgrade it. If the player builds a state house, then the player could build a governor's mansion. If the player built a state legislature, then maybe there could be a reward to plop the apartments of the state legislature. However, such rewards are low on my priority.

    3. I don't know of any multibilionaires who do not own single-family housing (estates/megamansions) although many of the wealthiest 2% of earners in the world own multiple properties. I say that in order to have a fortune 500 company, the player would have to encourage the growth of companies in the city and designate a large plot of land for use by the Keystone Elite at the right time. It could not be placed where land value is low or where there is any noticeable pollution and it would instantly raise property values around it, even if no one moves in. That way, special communities of executives and Elites could be built and certain zones would yield high quality private services to ensure that the neighborhood stays prosperous. As the elites increase in wealth from $2 billion to $400 billion net worth, their estates (which are either all on the same sized properties between 100x100 and 200x200 meters, depending on scale in CityBound) would upgrade from small country estates to opulent mega mansions or palaces. I could help with the art. I think the style of the building should depend on the era and upbringing of the Elite. If you start the game in 1800 and you focus on building up wealth early on with an export economy, the first Elite would live in an old fashioned country estate that upgrades into an old-fashioned palace.

    4. About education and immigration, I have thought long and hard about this and I think that the education level of the immigrants should depend not only on initial wealth but also on time period (earlier history had lower education, modern times have higher education), condition of the city (if the city has high education and demands more workers but all those demands are for educated workers, the immigrants will already be educated), and laws/edicts/policies/ordinances to encourage higher educated immigrants. HOWEVER, I still think that for most conditions, children born in the city with access to all levels of education should have higher education levels than immigrant parents. That will encourage the player to provide education for as many as possible. I do NOT want this to be like Tropico, where the player could easily have a powerful export economy without a single college or school and have all the educated workers be foreign specialists.

    5. And yes, some of the immigrants are refugees. I have considered the existence of an entire social class in poverty. R¢ are the dwellers of slums (or public housing) with no taxable income. They are rare and as I said, they only show up under extreme circumstances. If you have a large city with at least some residential neighborhood with lax building codes and low land value and at least moderate demand for completely uneducated and illiterate workers, then that neighborhood will become a slum. The easiest way to create a slum would be to have a moderately successful city have an area with Tier 1 industry (no upgrades, demands mostly uneducated and illiterate workers) surrounded (on at least 1 side) with residential zones with no building codes. Why someone would want to turn their city into Mumbai instead of NYC is beyond me but it should be possible. R$ are working poor. They are just above poverty. They are unlikely to move in during later stages of city development but are among the first to move in new cities and it is possible to keep their families poor (or bring them into poverty). However, no matter the era or education levels, R¢ will never move in with education and educated R$ are unlikely to drop into poverty. That is the only wealth level where there is almost exclusively 1 education level (which would be 0% educated) and that is because education lifts people out of poverty. I think that it would be a good idea to have education levels range from 0 EQ to 200 EQ, just like in SimCity 4. However, individual persons would have discreet education levels so they jump from 0 to 20 with preschool and 20 to 40 (or 50) with elementary school, and so on. With education levels being discreet (but have several steps) for individuals, cities with large populations would have continuous averages.



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    Honestly I ended up speed-reading through some posts but based on what I read, a game with this level of complexity will not only be hard to manage/render on 30%-60% of computers, but it will also make the spirit of the game jump tracks. What I mean by that is the game will go from being a City Builder-Management Simulation to full blown Construction and Management Simulation, which is the official genre of the game Tropico (it's not a City Builder). This isn't exactly a problem, but the point is to successfully build and manage a city along with certain economic factors, not to try to successfully build a city while worrying/managing thousands of other things at the same time. 


    That's why Tropico's genre is City Building, because building a city/nation isn't the point, managing every single aspect (some which wouldn't be handled by a Mayor in real life) is the goal. Citybound is supposed to be a "City Builder/Construction and Management Simulation" like SimCity4 or Cities Skylines (in contrast Cities XL is a full city-building game). With all the complexity suggested by the above posts the game will become way to complex for a person who wants to build the next sprawl-filled Los Angeles or sprawl-less Hong Kong.


    I'm not saying any of this is a bad idea I'm just saying it will add an unnecessary level of complexity to a game that was meant to be the opposite of that. Also don't forget this game is being developed by one person, and this will also place a pretty big load on him too.


    Not to mention that the sound of needing to wait for labor, materials, and time reminds me of social games like Cityville and SimCity BuildIt. I get what you mean but this brings me back to my point, that is way too much for a the intended genre of the game. If someone wants to build a massive Southern California style region with the same expansive freeway system and sprawling suburbs, waiting for those things will be too much for someone who just wants to watch their city grow.

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  • Original Poster
  • 1. This is my plan for implementing a mod without the help of Anzelm and Michael.

    2. My first priority will be to diversify the factories and products. My second priority will be to implement 4 wealth levels. My third priority will be to implement job qualifications and other ways to make the wealth levels more distinct. My fourth priority is to work on OcramTower with my new skills.


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    I am afraid this qualifies as putting the cart before the horse.  Such a mod, based on this game, may well nigh be impossible without access to the source code.  If Anselm is in his right mind, he will not allow access to his core source.

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  • Original Poster
  • I will wait until the first public release of CityBound, working on other projects in the meantime (mods for Cities: Skylines and Cities XL, listening to books, and of course university related stuff). Once CityBound has been released (probably as alpha, hopefully soon), I will dive into modding. It might be as simple as making new buildings with the same settings at first but I will see if it is possible to make new resources, which should be similar to cloning an existing resource and tweaking it (e.g. fuel into coal, crude, gasoline, and kerosene), and if it is possible I will implement that.



    EDIT: I just watched the live stream showing off Anzelm programming, testing, demonstrating, and explaining his ideas for a complex economy from April 15 (from before I posted this thread). It seems like he wanted to implement some of these things before I codified them into one thread (though he might have been inspired by what myself and others posted in other threads and on Reddit).


    Here is a flowchart showing the generic supply chain for any end product, starting from it being extracted (or grown) from the ground.


    As you can see, it includes Primary Industry (extraction and refining), secondary industry (manufacturing), tertiary industry (sales), as well as logistics and storage. This chart, made by /u/Diarum can apply to any supply chain if you allow certain parts on this chain to be multi-step and allow the end product of one chain to be used as a starting material for another chain.

    I think that it would be easy to divide workplaces into several types:

    • Agriculture (makes food, fibers, leather, and oils, byproducts can be turned into fertilizer)
    • Forestry (makes wood, fibers, and raw materials for chemicals)
    • Petroleum (pumps out crude petroleum, which is really valuable and useful for many production chains)
    • Mines (dig out coal, gems, and a variety of ores, all of which are useful for many production chains)
    • Quarries (dig out stone, and silica, and possibly gravel, marble, and minerals for fertilizer)
    • Refining/processing/heavy industry
    • Manufacturing Industry
    • High Tech Industry (computing and upgrades)
    • Retail (shops and restaurants)
    • Logistics/storage (warehouses, depots, distribution centers)
    • Offices (financial services and research)
    • Hotels (business and tourist)
    • Services and Leisure
    • Government
    The full list of all the resources (including raw, intermediate, and finished products) would probably take a couple of pages to write. The reason for this is that different demographics would have preferences (or needs) for different goods. I also think that for every node (step in the resource chain, factory type) with the same (or roughly the same) input resources and same output resources, there should be 3 tiers of increasing efficiency with more education. I already explained how upgraded industry is cleaner and makes higher quality products (and how products should each have 3 quality levels). However, I want the number of resources/products in the game (mod) to be a happy middle between realism (there is a 114 page list of all the categories of resources and products that officially exist in the real world) and simplicity of play (I don't want a statistic simulation based only on demand for work and workers, like in SimCity 4, nor do I want 1 generic good that is made by all the factories out of thin air without need for input or food, like in SimCity 2013, nor do I want a furniture factory to be supplied by petroleum and send out donut trucks, like in Cities: Skylines).

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    Honestly, the flow chart as well as the list would probably be just fine to implement, but when you said the list of resources would take pages to write is when it became too complex again, although I do agree with not having a single generic good or having petroleum being supplied to a furniture factory.


    Oh and I know nothing about modding but won't it be better to start modding when he releases the Beta since the source code of games usually gets changed a lot between Alpha and Beta?

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  • Original Poster
  • I am learning linear algebra this semester (mid-term exam tomorrow) and I learned that all 114 pages of resources, products, and goods (this ignores services, which is also a long list but not as ridiculous) can be tracked and calculated with linear algebra and learning about and working with any one of the many materials, goods and services can be made easier by ignoring all independent equations (the price of tea in China doesn't impact the price of platinum in California), which usually gives you a good, small matrix that can be worked with (arithmetically manipulated) using pen and paper. I also looked at my list of proposed resources, products, goods, and services and I can fit it all on one printed page as a 10pt paragraph list instead of an enumerated one. This means my idea is not as bad as it looked at first glance, @coolwiththecool2, and can be easily tracked by the computer program, expertly fine-tuned (what some would call min-maxing, what others would call economics+civil engineering) by players with skills or programs to handle matrices, and adequately managed using common sense. The complexity and forgiveness/flexibility of the simulated economy could even be a parameter in the difficulty. The simplest and easiest) would be similar to the videos shown earlier this year with the addition of utilities and factories importing raw materials from the neighboring cities. That makes 1 manufactured good, 1 raw material (imported), 1 food, 1 fuel (imported), 2 power plants (fuel and renewable), 1 water tower, maybe 1 waste treatment plant (cleans ground pollution and eliminates sewage and a small amount of garbage), maybe 1 recycling plant (eliminates some garbage, produces little raw material), 1 landfill zone, 1 wealth level, 2 types of shops, 1 type of office, and 1 type of factory. The most complex would have 4+2 wealth levels, 5 primary industries, and a plethora of variety for workplaces, shops, and goods. The most forgiving allows big surpluses, deficits, long commutes and teleportation/automatic restocks. The least forgiving would require good balance and flow to keep a city running and paying adequate taxes.

      Edited by OcramSeattle  

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