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koppees

City has more workers than a population.

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As you can see this city of mine has residential population of 8637, commercial population of 12516, and a industrial population of 4888. The city has no road or mass transit connections to my other cities, not even a one. If I use the route query tool, it shows that all workers come from this city and the average commute time is 0.2 hours. Can someone explain to me, where do all of those extra 8767 workers come from? How is it possible that my residential population is lower than a working population without any outside connection? And the funniest thing is, if I build one more high residential zone to the city, it starts to have no jobs sign. I think something is terribly wrong with this game. I have NAM and I-HT fix installed.

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You need to understand the counts. The non-residential counts are the number of jobs available, not population. You have massive unemployment.

You have around 17.000 jobs for a population of 8,600 Sims. You should have about 35,000 Sims. The ratio of Sims to jobs should be about 2:1. Mama-Sim doesn't work.

If you build more residential and get no-job zots there is either something wrong with your network or you haven't got the correct set up for the NAM. Did you get the NAM hot fix? (Assuming you have NAM v30). Another possibility is that you have the wrong kind of jobs available. A general mix of $:$$:$$$ jobs should be around 75:15:10. You can't have an all one kind of city. It is like pushing a rock uphill forever.

I have found that pre-laid-out grid cities such as you have are very hard to control. I generally grow my cities organically depending on the land features, and I start with a village and grow from there.

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The number of jobs available is not always equal to the number of workers. You can have a situation where there are too many positions and not enough workers to fill them; the opposite of unemployment. I think one of my regions is experiencing this at the moment; business demand has been negative for sometime but residential demand remains astronomical. I build subdivision after subdivision and it doesn't even make a dent in things. I think my downtown is overgrown for the population I have, so I have to zone insanely large quantities of housing to make up the deficit.

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  • Original Poster
  • v3khvs.png

    So I tested around a bit. It seems that the workers come from absolutely nowhere, they just magically appear without any residential population or connections to other cities. Which raises another question. How on earth can the commute times be calculated, from where?

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    As Nonny has mentioned before me, those are not workers, it's the total number of jobs there are in the city. As in real life, jobs can be vacant (as is the case in your city). If you want to avoid unemployment, you need the right kind of jobs. Humans don't take just any job that's available, and neither do sims. Depending on what your city's population looks like, you need a mix of low-income and high-income jobs.

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  • Original Poster
  • As Nonny has mentioned before me, those are not workers, it's the total number of jobs there are in the city. As in real life, jobs can be vacant (as is the case in your city). If you want to avoid unemployment, you need the right kind of jobs. Humans don't take just any job that's available, and neither do sims. Depending on what your city's population looks like, you need a mix of low-income and high-income jobs.

    sfzeqh.jpg

    As you can see, sims actually work in this factory. And I'm producing 24$ income.

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    That's not the number of sims working there, that's the maximum number of sims who can work there, it's the theoretical maximum. This number is based on the attractiveness (pollution, parks, crime,... influence attractiveness). If you do a traffic query on the building, you will see no arrows, indicating that no sims work there. The income is just taxes. All companies pay taxes, whether there work people or not.

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    Experience tell me to agree with Timmie and John. The number of jobs that could be provided by that factory is 38 of the maximum of 57 jobs. The only way to know the number of peoples working there is by using the traffic quest tool which is located just below the quest tool. So, how could I still get the tax from that factory if no one actually working there ? Because the tax already hard-coded by maxis and of course, when something grow and it is included as RCI, then it will pay the tax either someone live/working there or not. So, how could I get that $24 from them if they're not producing even just a dust and no one actually work there ?

    The reason is factories included as RCI as well, so all factory must pay the tax whether they're productive or not.

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    It is all true. Sorry to burst your bubble but the ratio on the query simply shows the numbers that can live/work there under current status and the maximum the lot can handle. Only the route-query operator, shortcut ALT+/, can tell you who is working where.

    This is a misinterpretation that novice players often make. The documentation is completely absent on this, and it really should have been in the manual.

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  • Original Poster
  • Experience tell me to agree with Timmie and John. The number of jobs that could be provided by that factory is 38 of the maximum of 57 jobs. The only way to know the number of peoples working there is by using the traffic quest tool which is located just below the quest tool. So, how could I still get the tax from that factory if no one actually working there ? Because the tax already hard-coded by maxis and of course, when something grow and it is included as RCI, then it will pay the tax either someone live/working there or not. So, how could I get that $24 from them if they're not producing even just a dust and no one actually work there ?

    The reason is factories included as RCI as well, so all factory must pay the tax whether they're productive or not.

    Thanks for the clarification, I think I'm finally beginning to understand it. But it still does not make much sense game-wise. In the city that is on the picture of my first post, there are only 4 residential buildings, rest of the map is full of commercial and I-HT zones. But the I-HT job demand is still maxed out. So in order to satisfy the job needs of 4 only residential buildings, I have to build 2 other maps full of I-HT zones? It does not make any sense.

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    Sims have to be educated to work at HT-Industry, uneducated sims work in factories like Manufacturing .

    Maybe this will help your problem .

    Zones are by density not by type .

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  • Original Poster
  • Sims have to be educated to work at HT-Industry, uneducated sims work in factories like Manufacturing .

    Maybe this will help your problem .

    Zones are by density not by type .

    My point is that industrial zones take far too much space in order to satisfy the demand of only the couple residential buildings. They don't evolve vertically like residential and commercial zones. And more space in this game means bigger commute times.

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    Which is why you don't see a lot of factories in Manhattan. Industrial is usually in outlying areas surrounding big metropolises. Maybe even in another city; that also solves the pollution problem. Commercial turns out to be a more efficient job source in built up areas. This is why SimCity is a strategy game.

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    This may sound stupid , but how can you tell how many sims are unemployed ? :???:

    No-job zots (brief cases with red diagonals) will appear indicating that at least some of the Sims in that residence could not find a job. Otherwise you could use one of the census mods that are available. IMHO these tend to shower you with too much information.

    When all the Sims in a building are unable to find work after a time, the building will dilapidate because it has either been downgraded or abandoned. The appearance will go from clean to dirty to black.

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    OP stated that this city is not connected to any other city, including that bigger one to the south. If that is true, than how come could this city get so much skyscrappers with a population as low as 8600 sims ? Could that be a demand bug ?

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  • Original Poster
  • 2uy64bt.jpg

    This game is starting to piss me off already. The commercial and industrial demand in my city is almost non existant, there are abandoned buildings of I-HT, Co $$$, Cs$$$ due to low demand, and yet there are still residential buildings with NO JOBS zots. The education rating in my city is almost 200, all taxes are by default 9%, the commute times are 0.3 (not sure if it means 30 minutes or 3 minutes), all the city is covered with monorail connections/stations, all desirability factors are almost maxed out, and still some sims can't find jobs. What the hell am I doing wrong?

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    1. Stop running in cheetah mode. Continuous running at the highest speed is a good way to get to the US Senate (lose the game).

    2. Do not layout all your streets in pause then start the game up. This is another of the deadly sins.

    3. Do not expect a huge city full of skyscrapers all at once, full of R$$$. This leads to frustration. The game is programmed against such foolishness.

    Rome wasn't built in a day, and cities cannot be built in the game in a Sim-month either.

    What version of the game is that? It looks like "vanilla" SimCity 4 Deluxe with no updates and no mods. Do you have NAM v30 and its hotfix?

    This is a leisure time game and believe me, friend, it militates against any kind of instant gratification as you've now discovered. Your treasury has a ridiculous balance. Lose your money tree and use the extra cheats .dll moolah command instead. Most city start-ups don't need more than 500000 Simoleans to get going.

    Your city is nearly 2000 Sim-years old, and have you made any provision for the ageing cycle of the Sims? Have you looked at the Population by Age graph and display. If the latter is mostly blue, your city is going into a die-out cycle.

    Always remember where cities come from. They start as either coastal villages or cross-roads in a farming community. Farms can quite happily be taken over when the land is needed as the urb sprawls.

    I like your green space, but it is perhaps excessive. If those buildings are all plopped, which I suspect, then think about what adding a single plopped commercial building does to the game. It generally screws up the commercial demand calculations for several Sim-months.

    I find your high-density R demand interesting. Don't you have any R$ tenements? I think this is what the game wants.

    Next time you start a city, leave it in default (Turtle), lay down a few farms (six should do it), add a village at a crossroad with half a dozen low density commercial lots ( 2 x 1 not 1 x 2), and about 30 residential low density (also 2 x 1). This should show a profit in a few Sim-months. As soon as you can afford it, add a fire station, then a health service, then a school and last but not least, some cops. Keep it profitable by adding residential (2 x 1), and some 2 x 2 middle and maybe some adjacent 2 x 2 high density. Don't plop anything except municipal buildings.

    Don't import the daily rat race into the game.


      Edited by A Nonny Moose  

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  • Original Poster
  • My game version is 1.1.638.0. I have installed all of the official updates, NAM v30, IH-T census fix. No cheats. money trees or other mods are used, I consider it a cheating.

    Looks like the problem is, as always, commute times. I have managed to get my commute times as low as 0.3, but it's still not enough? I have tried everything, it's just not possible to get even lower commute times. I can't even make one highway connection to my other cities, commute times will instantly skyrocket. Can someone please post a screenshot of a city with better commute times than I have? I'm losing interest to this game already, the game still has too many bugs and is simply unplayable.

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  • Original Poster
  • kd33n9.jpg

    Here is the screenshot of a R$$$ building that has a long commute time. In the backround there is a graph that shows average city commute time is less than 0.2. Now I ask you, if 0.2 is a long commute time, then what the hell is short?

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    You are missing the patch for BAT nightlights to take you to 1,1,640. Use the EA support button at sc4devotion to find it. You only need the patch, not the BAT.

    Still running in Cheetah, I see. You must have very fast comprehension to see all the details of the animation at that speed.

    Oh, and you didn't mention the NAM v30 Hotfix. Did you get it?

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    You need to understand the counts. The non-residential counts are the number of jobs available, not population. You have massive unemployment.

    Uhm ... no ... not unemployment!

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    As Nonny has mentioned before me, those are not workers, it's the total number of jobs there are in the city. As in real life, jobs can be vacant (as is the case in your city). If you want to avoid unemployment, you need the right kind of jobs. Humans don't take just any job that's available, and neither do sims. Depending on what your city's population looks like, you need a mix of low-income and high-income jobs.
    sfzeqh.jpg As you can see, sims actually work in this factory. And I'm producing 24$ income.

    I realize this was a test....but if I correctly understand what the numbers mean, according to the query posted in that screenshot, there is a factory which has the capability of producing 57 jobs max, though it is currently only able to fill 38 of those based on the type of residents available. In other words, there are 19 jobs the factory has available which are going unfilled because no one in the city is qualified for them. HOWEVER, there is no population at all. So how would the game even be able to give that ratio in the first place?

    2uy64bt.jpg This game is starting to piss me off already. The commercial and industrial demand in my city is almost non existant, there are abandoned buildings of I-HT, Co $$$, Cs$$$ due to low demand, and yet there are still residential buildings with NO JOBS zots. The education rating in my city is almost 200, all taxes are by default 9%, the commute times are 0.3 (not sure if it means 30 minutes or 3 minutes), all the city is covered with monorail connections/stations, all desirability factors are almost maxed out, and still some sims can't find jobs. What the hell am I doing wrong?

    kd33n9.jpg Here is the screenshot of a R$$$ building that has a long commute time. In the backround there is a graph that shows average city commute time is less than 0.2. Now I ask you, if 0.2 is a long commute time, then what the hell is short?

    Well, I won't presume to be able to tell you what you're doing wrong, but if I can make some suggestions....

    There aren't many jobs for R$$$ Sims, and that's by default. In the real world, remember only 10% of the population (if even that) is considered wealthy. Have you tried reducing the number of R$$$ zones? Plus, I wonder if your C$$$ and I-HT buildings are abandoning because your R$$$ Sims simply don't want to make the commute to those jobs based on the type of transit network available to them...? You say you have a lot of monorail connections in your city, but R$$$ Sims hate to use mass transit. They would rather drive. However, I can also see you're going overboard on the one-way streets. Transform them into two-way avenues, and ditch the monorail in R$$$ zones. Maybe consider putting in some highways to improve commute times.

    Your industrial demand is negative because it's overproducing jobs for Sims which aren't available to fill those positions. You have a glut of jobs, but no one to fill them. See how high your residential demand is? You need to zone a LOT more R$ and R$$ zones to get that to come down before your industrial demand will start to come up.

    You need to understand the counts. The non-residential counts are the number of jobs available, not population. You have massive unemployment.
    Uhm ... no ... not unemployment!

    Somehow that's what I thought, too. If there are 17K jobs available, but only 8600 Sims who live in the city, that doesn't translate into unemployment. Nonny, what did you mean by that?

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    You need to understand the counts. The non-residential counts are the number of jobs available, not population. You have massive unemployment.
    Uhm ... no ... not unemployment!

    Somehow that's what I thought, too. If there are 17K jobs available, but only 8600 Sims who live in the city, that doesn't translate into unemployment. Nonny, what did you mean by that?

    Do you read this part of his post ?

    Another possibility is that you have the wrong kind of jobs available. A general mix of $:$$:$$$ jobs should be around 75:15:10. You can't have an all one kind of city. It is like pushing a rock uphill forever.

    I assume if koppees' city has too many R$$$. Because of the number of the R$$$ jobs rate is 10% of all jobs, then the available number of R$$$ jobs in his city is 1,700 instead of 17,000 because the other 90% of jobs should be fulfilled by R$ and R$$ population of the city. I also assume if he build the city become filled with skyscrapers too early. A city with 11,921 inhabitants should be a small city with many small houses and some small apartments instead of a city full of stage 7 and 8 skyscrapers. Even for a 750 years old city, it could be called as too early because he keeps his city from growing wider first before make it become taller.

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    I realize this was a test....but if I correctly understand what the numbers mean, according to the query posted in that screenshot, there is a factory which has the capability of producing 57 jobs max, though it is currently only able to fill 38 of those based on the type of residents available. In other words, there are 19 jobs the factory has available which are going unfilled because no one in the city is qualified for them. HOWEVER, there is no population at all. So how would the game even be able to give that ratio in the first place?

    It's not about qualification for a job, but desirability for more jobopenings, placing market squares increases the numbers of jobs available on nearby commercial lots.. Residental areas wants parks, while open grass helps all RCI's..

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    Sorry, wrong choice of words. Should have been job vacancies. When you click on a city to open it you get R, C, and I counts. The latter two are jobs. The ratio of Sims ® to jobs (C+I) should be on the order of 2:1. Only about half the Sims work, the rest are housekeepers.

    Remember, the game is based on Silicon Valley in the late 1990s where it was possible for a family to have a care-giver at home.

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    You need to understand the counts. The non-residential counts are the number of jobs available, not population. You have massive unemployment.
    Uhm ... no ... not unemployment!

    Somehow that's what I thought, too. If there are 17K jobs available, but only 8600 Sims who live in the city, that doesn't translate into unemployment. Nonny, what did you mean by that?

    Do you read this part of his post ?

    Another possibility is that you have the wrong kind of jobs available. A general mix of $:$$:$$$ jobs should be around 75:15:10. You can't have an all one kind of city. It is like pushing a rock uphill forever.

    I assume if koppees' city has too many R$$$. Because of the number of the R$$$ jobs rate is 10% of all jobs, then the available number of R$$$ jobs in his city is 1,700 instead of 17,000 because the other 90% of jobs should be fulfilled by R$ and R$$ population of the city. I also assume if he build the city become filled with skyscrapers too early. A city with 11,921 inhabitants should be a small city with many small houses and some small apartments instead of a city full of stage 7 and 8 skyscrapers. Even for a 750 years old city, it could be called as too early because he keeps his city from growing wider first before make it become taller.

    Even with 1700 R$$$ unemployed residents there are many more vacancies. So what's your point?

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