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BAT - Troubleshooting & General Discussion

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I am doing the BAT Essentials Tutorial & have a question on texturing.  When material (brick texture) is applied to extruded walls it shows fine in viewpoint on one side of the wall, but the other side is completely black. . . but the preview appears to be OK.  What is going on here & how do I rectify it?  I am running BAT/Gmax & the UVW map is set on box.

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  • Original Poster
  • On 9/4/2017 at 10:52 AM, Eagle74 said:

    I am doing the BAT Essentials Tutorial & have a question on texturing.  When material (brick texture) is applied to extruded walls it shows fine in viewpoint on one side of the wall, but the other side is completely black. . . but the preview appears to be OK.  What is going on here & how do I rectify it?  I am running BAT/Gmax & the UVW map is set on box.

    If your UVW Map is set up correctly, and your preview render looks correct, then everything is probably fine. The viewport isn't a reliable way of knowing how something will look and it's prone to visual problems. :) 

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    Thanks, from reading the threads that is what I expected.  Though it is annoying when you are trying to texture & can't see what it looks like without previewing.

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    Yo, guys --

    I followed some links for steam locomotives and I found some really GREAT trains --

    UNFORTUNATELY -- they are Mods.  They are designed to replace the Maxis train system and do not function well alongside the VDK trains I already run.  Since I didn't want to mess up the train system entirely, I though I could try using them as "props" in various locations on the map.  They are beautiful little trains.

    The files have, most likely, been "dat." packed -- and I am (comparatively) a novice at this stuff.

    IS THERE ANY WAY TO OPEN THOSE FILES AND EXTRACT THE PROPS?

     

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    You can run three sets of trains as automata at the same time. 1 Passenger train and 2 freight trains.

    Automata however are not props, they behave differently because they need to be fully 3D models as they move about. As such DAT packed or otherwise, you can't use them as props with making a custom prop exemplar for the purpose. I can give you some that link to the automata you are using, but to make that work with other automata you'll need to re-ID the original files or you'll end up with an ID conflict as all Automata use set IDs.

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    Not really Dreadnought. Lets clarify some things here. 

    "Replacement" (the same IID as the maxis locos)

    "Additional" (a unique IID from the maxis locos)

    So the locos you got are probably set to be replacements. That doesn't mean you couldn't go in and alter their IID's to let them be additionals, you absolutely can do it. Additionals would be mixed in randomly with the trains you're running now. I run VDK's locos all mixed together, I never know which line i'll see.

    If you can use the reader, it's not too difficult.

    Also, there is a way to make them props. It's what VDK did with his GEVO locos, have a look at his uploads. 

    There are also some steam loco props around in prop packs, there is some posts about it in the "can't find it?" thread recently.

    Cheers, tiger

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    12 minutes ago, tigerbuilder said:

    Also, there is a way to make them props. It's what VDK did with his GEVO locos, have a look at his uploads. 

    I believe Vester actually re-rendered his models as props, that's not something you can easily do. Although you can make RTK0 or True 3D models work as props (as I did for my RDP kit), again it's not actually all that simple, unless you know what you are doing. Because you must understand how to re-id and link the IDs, of course that's totally possible if you are familiar with the Reader, but such modding is not for everyone.

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    @tigerbuilder

    Well -- again --

    To be more specific -- I'm not all that interested in running the trains as automata (though the idea is intriguing).

    And -- It's nice to know that it is possible to convert them to props --

    I was most interested in making a few lots where they could be parked on sidings in various places, or around rail yards and terminals.  And the "Mikado" and the "C&O Hudson" automata I found were very nice looking trains.  They would have made some nice vignettes for the game.

    But as @rsc204points out -- you must have knowledge of the proper skills to make the prop idea work. 

    And I do not have the knowledge or skills.

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    It does take a learning curve to figure out which strings of code to look for, but it comes easy once you get it.
    Generally this is the simple approach-

    Replacements:
    -All coding is in order as your new model is going to override the old. Simply import your model in the iLive reader, do the same, with the replacement texture.

    Additions:
    Create a new IID, the exemplar (properties) file will have a line for which model to be used. On the model, change the instance to match the Exemplar. When the model's IID is changed, the same thing happens with the texture.
    In the end it's more like Exemplar>Model>Texture, but the Exemplar is riding off another property that dictates where it shows up. Like my updated Titanic is it's own model but it shares it's spot with the cruise ship. Or it can take it's place. Yet for some reason this principle doesn't want to work for aircraft..

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    32 minutes ago, airman15 said:

    It does take a learning curve to figure out which strings of code to look for, but it comes easy once you get it.
    Generally this is the simple approach-

    Replacements:
    -All coding is in order as your new model is going to override the old. Simply import your model in the iLive reader, do the same, with the replacement texture.

    Additions:
    Create a new IID, the exemplar (properties) file will have a line for which model to be used. On the model, change the instance to match the Exemplar. When the model's IID is changed, the same thing happens with the texture.
    In the end it's more like Exemplar>Model>Texture, but the Exemplar is riding off another property that dictates where it shows up. Like my updated Titanic is it's own model but it shares it's spot with the cruise ship. Or it can take it's place. Yet for some reason this principle doesn't want to work for aircraft..

    OMG !!

    I had absolutely no idea they started speaking "Greek" in Garden Valley.  It was English when I lived down in Torrance -- but it sure sounds like Greek to me !! *:rofl:

    Seriously -- thanks for the thought -- but you're talking to a guy that starts an explanation with -- "Step One; Open Maxis Reader" !  

    But thanks, again, for the thought.

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    Haha! By eating from Garden Valley's gardens, you will gain superpowers! Sadly I'm one of the only ones who can speak that Greek, the rest seems like English and 'Murican.

    It took me about a year of trying and failing and crashing and burning until I could start making files like I turn out now. I know C88 made a tutorial elsewhere and that was my go-to for some of my early works. I've still yet to try out animated models like Rivit can do. Going any simpler in making new cars, ships is old-fashioned Black Magic!

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    Please help. I've always wanted to BAT some stadia to SC4 (espcially Helsinki Olympic) but those damn seatings. They don't look natural. So explain how I make good looking seats / rows of them.

    I didn't post this on Krioworks, because I believe different thread will get better answers.

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    Well the simple part is, you only need to make one seat or bank, then use the various array tools to copy and even bend them nicely to fill the arena. If you are still using SC4 BAT though you are going to have a tough time because the polygon limits will mean you can't be too detailed due to the sheer number you will need.

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    rsc: yeah, I know. I usually take measurements from my chairs: 40 cm from ground to the butt and 20 cm to the next seat above. You X it up to stadia and it looks like and a landslide.

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    Three days in a row - everything I lay my hands upon in SC4 turns out to look ugly. Could need some cheer up.

    Now, during export in B.A.T everything looks fine but in LE and in game on the farer zoom levels (1-3) there is a terrible moiree on the edge of this bat, while on the closer zooms (4 and 5) it looks as it should:

    distortion.jpg

     

    Interestingly it appears always only on the opposite angle your watching at. If would flip 2x it would appear on the other side, if I flip 1x it doesn't show - so its always on the opposite long side, which makes me wonder if its related to the render at all.

    Any hints how to get rid of this?

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    11 hours ago, Fantozzi said:

    if I flip 1x it doesn't show - so its always on the opposite long side, which makes me wonder if its related to the render at all.

    Any hints how to get rid of this?

     

    You're correct, it's not the render. Most of the images relating to this problem (when 90% of batters used gmax) have long been erased from the internet, but essentially it has to do with the colour of the texture chosen and your video card. It may or may not appear to have the same problems on someone else's machine.

    Gmax has inherent difficulties in representing both whites and shades of grey - especially greys with a blue base; so for your roof you could try de-saturating the texture so that it ends up more closely aligned to the values of the shingle roof on the building next to it, or you could try changing the base tint in the GIMP and then de-saturating. Either way, it will take some trial-and-error to get a more acceptable result.

     

    Edit: I also forgot that any textures that are opaque (eg glass) can cause gmax to do this to the other textures on the BAT once rendered. 

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    I had this issue with one of my models, although it won't help you none, the eventual solution I used was moving to 3DS Max instead.

    If you get problems and want to know if the render is OK or not, you can open the SC4Model file in Reader. Look at the FSH textures inside, if they don't have any errors, you know the render process was not the cause. All the instance IDs follow a scheme for which Zoom/Rotation the textures are for like so:

    0003DZRU

     

    • D = Day (0) or Night (8) texture.
    • Z = Zoom 1-5 (0-4)
    • R = Rotation, S, W, N, E (0, 1, 2, 3)
    • U = Unique Texture ID. (0-F), which allows for 16 textures to be combined for any single zoom/rotation of the model.

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    Thank you, @mattb325 did as you suggested (desaturated, shifted a little bit from blue to red) and at least I could reduce it considerably.

    @rsc204, thanks that's a handy information too.

    18 hours ago, mattb325 said:

    Edit: I also forgot that any textures that are opaque (eg glass) can cause gmax to do this to the other textures on the BAT once rendered. 

    Ah! Indeed on the brink of the roof I didn't apply a texture only an opaque grey colour. So I'll check this too now.

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    19 hours ago, mattb325 said:

    You're correct, it's not the render. Most of the images relating to this problem (when 90% of batters used gmax) have long been erased from the internet, but essentially it has to do with the colour of the texture chosen and your video card. It may or may not appear to have the same problems on someone else's machine.

    Gmax has inherent difficulties in representing both whites and shades of grey - especially greys with a blue base; so for your roof you could try de-saturating the texture so that it ends up more closely aligned to the values of the shingle roof on the building next to it, or you could try changing the base tint in the GIMP and then de-saturating. Either way, it will take some trial-and-error to get a more acceptable result.

     

    Edit: I also forgot that any textures that are opaque (eg glass) can cause gmax to do this to the other textures on the BAT once rendered. 

    I'm going to chime in here and say that from my experience, the texture color isn't the problem exclusively - it has more to do with including textures in a model that are not 100% opaque.  I had this on a model a while ago, and we did a lot of troubleshooting in my BAT thread (circa late 2011 if I recall correctly).  Just having a set of textures with a less opaque one in the mix is enough to "singe" or fritz out the edges of another texture.  Luckily, in my experience, it happens very infrequently; I think in over 120 BATs I have done, I have seen it twice, and both times the textures it affected were wildly different.

    I use see-through (ie. non-opaque) textures less and less now, since I am doing gmax nightlighting a slightly different way of late.  (Instead of using modeled interiors and lighting them behind clear glass).  The good news is that the pixels being "burned" are not in the actual renders/FSH files - so it's not something that will be "baked into" the BAT if you share it with others.

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    Hello friends !
    As you already know, I am an apprentice to model and create buildings.
    I like New York models and this afternoon I tried to create one.
    and this is what happened?
    Does anyone know why? I would like to know, thank you!5a3a99b8ba4d5_Midtown-TimesSquare-Turtle-1Ag.441513789443.png.db5fbe1ac36b85605ad191e7030b207a.png

    Midtown - Times Square - Turtle-6 Ag., 441513789462.png

    Midtown - Times Square - Turtle-9 Ag., 441513789475.png

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    I'm having a problem with the lighting/shadows for a model i'm trying to import into SimCity 4... I made it in milkshape, and when i render it in BAT, the shadows on it are all weird (like in the left picture). it doesn't just look like that when i import it in BAT though, it looks like that as i render it to in the rendering window.

    But i really just want it to show up flat and smooth without any of the shadows. 

    Does anyone know how i can fix this?

    please help ♥ 

     

    BFPZZCe.png

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    Most likely the UV mapping has not been correctly imported into gMax. You could start by simply adding a UV map to the objects in question, but you may need to tweak this to get the textures to display as intended.

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    4 hours ago, rsc204 said:

    Most likely the UV mapping has not been correctly imported into gMax. You could start by simply adding a UV map to the objects in question, but you may need to tweak this to get the textures to display as intended.

    UV map? i applied the texture in BAT, it is showing up. it's just the lighting and shadows on it are very weird when i render it and it's not looking right.

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    UV Mapping determines how a texture is mapped to a geometric object in your modelling application. For complex geometry, you usually need one, because you need to tell the application how the texture is to be placed. This is because every 3D model is made of Polygons or Triangles. So a square is just 2 triangles, which is fairly simple and a texture will map to that without any effort. But when you have jagged complex objects, a UV map is essential so that the texture appears correctly.

    Select the object which has the texture applied, go to Modifiers and add a UVW Map. You can then select from the various options of the UV Map to get the texture looking right. Face or Box will probably work best for this.

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    34 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

    UV Mapping determines how a texture is mapped to a geometric object in your modelling application. For complex geometry, you usually need one, because you need to tell the application how the texture is to be placed. This is because every 3D model is made of Polygons or Triangles. So a square is just 2 triangles, which is fairly simple and a texture will map to that without any effort. But when you have jagged complex objects, a UV map is essential so that the texture appears correctly.

    Select the object which has the texture applied, go to Modifiers and add a UVW Map. You can then select from the various options of the UV Map to get the texture looking right. Face or Box will probably work best for this.

    but the texture is already the way i want it to be arranged on the object. it's the lighting and shadows on it that i'm having problems with. 

    i did the UV mapping already when i made the object in milkshape. 

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    Well the black lines on the sign shaped like the county are a classic visual indicator that the UV map is not right. Because the lines form triangles rather than a flat image. Why do you assume the UV mapping will be correctly imported from Milkshape? I'm not saying it can't be done, but it certainly doesn't look like it has to me.

    You mention lighting and shadows, but what exactly do you mean? If you are using SC4BAT, you have no real control over either. The lighting rig is selected for you, whereas the only shadows needed are when parts of a model are casting shadows onto another part of the same model. But again, the lighting and camera rig handles this for you, it should not need adjustment.

    So we're back again to looking at Textures and UV mapping, because those are really all that affect what you see. Unless one of the following applies:

    • Rendering the model works without error.
      Worth checking, perhaps it's just wonky in the viewport
    • There is something wrong with the object's geometry, causing you problems. That's much harder to diagnose frankly.

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    Post a picture of what it looks like in the preview render?
    (Ie. when you click on the "preview" button under the BAT tab.)
    The preview render is not the perspective window.  What it looks like in those four windows is ultimately less important than how it will look preview rendered, as the preview (not the perspective window) is the closest it will look in-game.

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