The fact that this thread is still alive indicates more than just "interest". We know pretty much what needs fixing in the .exe, and we also know there is inactive code. All we really want is some debugging time, and some decisions on whether to turn on some features that have been omitted. A recompilation with a modern compiler allowing multiprocessor activities might be nice, but if it is not already there, this shouldn't be touched.
There should be no change in the graphics set up except, perhaps, to make it easier to run in unanticipated (at the time) formats. And of course, the graphics file should be updated to current.
And, all things considered, I would like to see a version in ELF (Linux) format as well as one for O/S X to go along with the Windows version. This is just a matter of compilation of the source on two different machines. Of course, the other possibility here is to recompile for visual studio .NET, which can be run almost anywhere using mono. Perhaps this is a slight increase in the marketing ability, but consider the number of people running the game using alternate means.
0
SimCity 4 in the Future: A Falcon Approach?
Started by
LivingInThePast
, Nov 14, 2010 - 04:01 PM
104 replies to this topic
#31
A Nonny Moose
-
- Member
-
- 24,488 posts
Simtropophile
- LocationHensall, Ontario, Canada
Posted 28 November 2010 - 09:24 AM
Small, Fast and Free: Linux is the program for me.
Writing non-free software is not an ethically legitimate activity,
so if people who do this run into trouble, that's good!
All businesses based on non-free software ought to fail, and the sooner the better. -- Richard Stallman
.
"We have met the enemy, and he is us" - Walt Kelly
Come join us at the Moose Factory
#32
GMT
-
- Member
-
- 3,986 posts
Simtropolis Geek
Posted 28 November 2010 - 09:40 AM
speaking of graphic tweaks, I think a "patch" so mac users can enjoy it in full beauty like win users can, might be a thing to consider... somewhere down the line...
#33
A Nonny Moose
-
- Member
-
- 24,488 posts
Simtropophile
- LocationHensall, Ontario, Canada
Posted 28 November 2010 - 10:04 AM
speaking of graphic tweaks, I think a "patch" so mac users can enjoy it in full beauty like win users can, might be a thing to consider... somewhere down the line...
Small, Fast and Free: Linux is the program for me.
Writing non-free software is not an ethically legitimate activity,
so if people who do this run into trouble, that's good!
All businesses based on non-free software ought to fail, and the sooner the better. -- Richard Stallman
.
"We have met the enemy, and he is us" - Walt Kelly
Come join us at the Moose Factory
#34
halicem
-
- Member
-
- 43 posts
Sophomore
Posted 28 November 2010 - 05:57 PM
I think it's awesome this thread's still active, maybe we could keep it rolling? 
Everyone has good points! It's true that we're pretty insignificant as far as coveted demographics goes, but we're easily pleased. We've accepted SC4 for what it is - and that it's a non-3d game.
I was out shopping this weekend and what I did notice is that perhaps SC4: Unplugged might not work for EA. It seems to me, their new favorite word is "Unleashed" so props to Nonny for putting forth SC4: Unleashed. Maybe now EA will consider it?
Kidding aside, I also realized that the "fish" we're dangling in front of EA isn't "palatable" to them. Basically, the approach was they make money for very little effort on their part. But them being a corporation with dynamic needs, such an old-school clear-cut idea of making money from minimal work is ridiculous for them. Oh no, I realized that the very thing that makes SC4 great is the very thing that stops EA from working on it. What is it? Why, it's the plugins!
Because SC4 was so open and easy to add to - just add in a file, it became easy to create custom content. And for the first couple of years they liked the idea of the community keeping the interest alive. But then came the sims and the massive expansions packs. They then realized hey, people are willing to keep on paying for tiny trinkets like a chair! Somewhere in a corporate boardroom, this was put forth: "We can charge $1 for a branded chair which took less than an hour from our graphics team to make and 1000 people will buy it at the very least!"
But because SC4 is open, they can't specifically charge per building. What's to stop the first buyer from sharing it? That and SC4 buildings are more complex than a chair, it will take longer to make. The ROI for them is just too low and not worth it.
Btw, this per-item basis is still the business norm. Everyone from online games to iphone apps and facebook games follow this model and people are just lapping it up. So our chances, with our "outdated" business model, of getting what we want is slim to none.
In other words: SC4: Unleashed is pretty much dead. Though if EA decides to open negotiations then fantstic!
But perhaps there's another option. Let's embrace being old school and do SC4: Unplugged. Here's a two step idea which I wish to submit to the community and the powers that be!
It was put forth time and again to have a consortium. Always a bit leery of these sort of things since there's always the trust issue and lack of overall participation. But I bring it back with a different take on it... Let's go ahead and establish a consortium - but let's take the X-Prize route!
X Prize is a foundation which sets challenges and rewards those who are able to complete those challenges first. Most famous of their challenges is the Ansari X Prize which offered $10M for the first team to build and fly a reusable space vehicle.
While we can't hope to have $10M in funding, perhaps this is where those who are willing to donate finally have an outlet. What do you guys think of the "Trixie Prize"?
Trixie Prize
At the end of this year's Trixie's, the Trixie Prize formally kicks off with two challenges(what they are? to be discussed later, just mechanics for now). Why two? I picture it as being one very long-term(think SC4 on native linux, too ambitious? lol), and one relatively easier(NAM-scale projects). While the challenge is going on, people can then start donating to the fund. The fund is just a paypal account taken care of by a trusted core. Every week, they will report to the community and provide screenshots of all transactions from the previous week.
When someone fulfills a challenge, the fund is divided into two. Half is disbursed to the winning team, the other half is kept and allocated to the other challenge's pot. Another challenge is launched and the Trixie fund is reset to 0. People then start donating again. Naturally, the long term project is long. so various short-term projects may finish first. So reward for the long-term project could push into the thousands of $$.
I don't believe it will divide the community into teams, though competition will be good. On the other hand, I think it might in the end just be an outlet for rewarding the already established teams and a thank you for those who historically has never accepted anything in return. But I hope it stirs a bit of friendly competition.
Now for the other step, think SC4 will work as an RPG?
Dungeon Mode
So, you were able to grow bixel's Tung Chung's Crescent. Big deal. Can you grow all of bixel's creation's in one city? Welcome to the "Bixel Divine KongQuest". The quest is simple, just grow all of bixel's BAT in a city. Easy mode = large tile, Medium = medium tile and Hard mode = small tile(is it even possible??). What's the reward? Custom map(easy mode)/modifier or prop pack(medium mode)/content(hard mode).
How does it work? There will be a master list of all quests. Players just pick one they wish to do. Work on it. When they finish it, pause the game. Save. Upload the city tile to dropbox. A volunteer checker then downloads the city tile, since the quest is pre-defined, the checker loads the dependencies required for the quest. Import the city tile. Open it up in SC4. Checker should be able to see quest fulfillment amidst a sea of brown boxes. Make sure game is paused. Upon fulfillment verification, quest reward items are sent to the player. Maybe a special building from bixel? Obviously they can share the creation though I think we're adults enough to not make it publicly available.
How is this different from the BSC reward chains? It's different because you really have to work for it to get it. You can't just open it up and relot it on your own. But this brings even more interesting combos. So you received the special prop pack or special building, you can then perhaps create another BAT based on that or have the special building as a reward condition. This makes the game even more challenging for others!
So what exactly are these two steps for? It's a bit far from the original charting the future of simcity 4 right? Not really, the Trixie prize is meant to drive innovation and change in the game(Development part). Dungeon mode is meant to keep players hooked in and interested and at the same time get new people involved(Marketing part). It's meant to complement each other - as development keeps on progressing, more things become possible and more people get more involved which in turn drives more development. Combined, it will, perhaps, equal whatever we miss out on with not having EA's blessings.
But at any rate, this is just brain farts that usually succeed a long weekend. Something about not working keeps the mind fresh.
Everyone has good points! It's true that we're pretty insignificant as far as coveted demographics goes, but we're easily pleased. We've accepted SC4 for what it is - and that it's a non-3d game.
I was out shopping this weekend and what I did notice is that perhaps SC4: Unplugged might not work for EA. It seems to me, their new favorite word is "Unleashed" so props to Nonny for putting forth SC4: Unleashed. Maybe now EA will consider it?
Kidding aside, I also realized that the "fish" we're dangling in front of EA isn't "palatable" to them. Basically, the approach was they make money for very little effort on their part. But them being a corporation with dynamic needs, such an old-school clear-cut idea of making money from minimal work is ridiculous for them. Oh no, I realized that the very thing that makes SC4 great is the very thing that stops EA from working on it. What is it? Why, it's the plugins!
Because SC4 was so open and easy to add to - just add in a file, it became easy to create custom content. And for the first couple of years they liked the idea of the community keeping the interest alive. But then came the sims and the massive expansions packs. They then realized hey, people are willing to keep on paying for tiny trinkets like a chair! Somewhere in a corporate boardroom, this was put forth: "We can charge $1 for a branded chair which took less than an hour from our graphics team to make and 1000 people will buy it at the very least!"
But because SC4 is open, they can't specifically charge per building. What's to stop the first buyer from sharing it? That and SC4 buildings are more complex than a chair, it will take longer to make. The ROI for them is just too low and not worth it.
Btw, this per-item basis is still the business norm. Everyone from online games to iphone apps and facebook games follow this model and people are just lapping it up. So our chances, with our "outdated" business model, of getting what we want is slim to none.
In other words: SC4: Unleashed is pretty much dead. Though if EA decides to open negotiations then fantstic!
But perhaps there's another option. Let's embrace being old school and do SC4: Unplugged. Here's a two step idea which I wish to submit to the community and the powers that be!
It was put forth time and again to have a consortium. Always a bit leery of these sort of things since there's always the trust issue and lack of overall participation. But I bring it back with a different take on it... Let's go ahead and establish a consortium - but let's take the X-Prize route!
X Prize is a foundation which sets challenges and rewards those who are able to complete those challenges first. Most famous of their challenges is the Ansari X Prize which offered $10M for the first team to build and fly a reusable space vehicle.
While we can't hope to have $10M in funding, perhaps this is where those who are willing to donate finally have an outlet. What do you guys think of the "Trixie Prize"?
Trixie Prize
At the end of this year's Trixie's, the Trixie Prize formally kicks off with two challenges(what they are? to be discussed later, just mechanics for now). Why two? I picture it as being one very long-term(think SC4 on native linux, too ambitious? lol), and one relatively easier(NAM-scale projects). While the challenge is going on, people can then start donating to the fund. The fund is just a paypal account taken care of by a trusted core. Every week, they will report to the community and provide screenshots of all transactions from the previous week.
When someone fulfills a challenge, the fund is divided into two. Half is disbursed to the winning team, the other half is kept and allocated to the other challenge's pot. Another challenge is launched and the Trixie fund is reset to 0. People then start donating again. Naturally, the long term project is long. so various short-term projects may finish first. So reward for the long-term project could push into the thousands of $$.
I don't believe it will divide the community into teams, though competition will be good. On the other hand, I think it might in the end just be an outlet for rewarding the already established teams and a thank you for those who historically has never accepted anything in return. But I hope it stirs a bit of friendly competition.
Now for the other step, think SC4 will work as an RPG?
Dungeon Mode
So, you were able to grow bixel's Tung Chung's Crescent. Big deal. Can you grow all of bixel's creation's in one city? Welcome to the "Bixel Divine KongQuest". The quest is simple, just grow all of bixel's BAT in a city. Easy mode = large tile, Medium = medium tile and Hard mode = small tile(is it even possible??). What's the reward? Custom map(easy mode)/modifier or prop pack(medium mode)/content(hard mode).
How does it work? There will be a master list of all quests. Players just pick one they wish to do. Work on it. When they finish it, pause the game. Save. Upload the city tile to dropbox. A volunteer checker then downloads the city tile, since the quest is pre-defined, the checker loads the dependencies required for the quest. Import the city tile. Open it up in SC4. Checker should be able to see quest fulfillment amidst a sea of brown boxes. Make sure game is paused. Upon fulfillment verification, quest reward items are sent to the player. Maybe a special building from bixel? Obviously they can share the creation though I think we're adults enough to not make it publicly available.
How is this different from the BSC reward chains? It's different because you really have to work for it to get it. You can't just open it up and relot it on your own. But this brings even more interesting combos. So you received the special prop pack or special building, you can then perhaps create another BAT based on that or have the special building as a reward condition. This makes the game even more challenging for others!
So what exactly are these two steps for? It's a bit far from the original charting the future of simcity 4 right? Not really, the Trixie prize is meant to drive innovation and change in the game(Development part). Dungeon mode is meant to keep players hooked in and interested and at the same time get new people involved(Marketing part). It's meant to complement each other - as development keeps on progressing, more things become possible and more people get more involved which in turn drives more development. Combined, it will, perhaps, equal whatever we miss out on with not having EA's blessings.
But at any rate, this is just brain farts that usually succeed a long weekend. Something about not working keeps the mind fresh.
#35
GMT
-
- Member
-
- 3,986 posts
Simtropolis Geek
Posted 29 November 2010 - 12:45 AM
speaking of graphic tweaks, I think a "patch" so mac users can enjoy it in full beauty like win users can, might be a thing to consider... somewhere down the line...
Anyways, I've stumbled over several instances of named problems every now and then, browsing the CJs and stuff. One thing that directly comes to mind is that there was an issue concering the depiction of shadows which afaik could not be solved. Also there're named visual bugs concerning water and randomly replaced props (not caused by instance duplications).
And several other bugs not related to graphics like CTDs due to city poplation, problems in UDI and stuff...
#36
A Nonny Moose
-
- Member
-
- 24,488 posts
Simtropophile
- LocationHensall, Ontario, Canada
Posted 29 November 2010 - 03:51 PM
@GMT. Yes, I use wine. If the game was for .NET I would use mono. wine is not an emulator, it is a kernel layer. It simply intercepts windows api calls and translates them into the cognate Linux calls. The rest of the code just runs as is. DirectX gets converted to OpenGL, and I don't see any difference in the graphics content running with everything on high. Because the game is not allowed to get down on the hardware and scratch, does interfere somewhat with the animation. I don't much care.
CTD's are endemic. Running the game from a console window gives me two advantages. If I get a freaky CTD, I can look at the wine log to see if there is anything that is out of the ordinary, and I can get back into the game with two key strokes (an up arrow and a return). Yesterday I was getting CTD's every 10 minutes or so. Today I ran for three hours with only one CTD. The way this behaves, it seems like there are multiple problems in the game itself and it depends on which ones you stumble upon. A lot of them seem to have to do with rotation and scrolling, while others have to do with laying down transportation networks.
As an old Chief Programmer and QA specialist, I think a lot of good could be done with about a month of intensive debugging. We all know that EA forced this game on to the market before the QA cycle was finished. This is most evident from the number of patches that were issued before the game actually hit the stores. This is not good business practiice as it increases the support expense. The heavy hitters in the NAM and other teams have a pretty comprehensive list of things they would like to fix, but we are legally bound not to do so.
CTD's are endemic. Running the game from a console window gives me two advantages. If I get a freaky CTD, I can look at the wine log to see if there is anything that is out of the ordinary, and I can get back into the game with two key strokes (an up arrow and a return). Yesterday I was getting CTD's every 10 minutes or so. Today I ran for three hours with only one CTD. The way this behaves, it seems like there are multiple problems in the game itself and it depends on which ones you stumble upon. A lot of them seem to have to do with rotation and scrolling, while others have to do with laying down transportation networks.
As an old Chief Programmer and QA specialist, I think a lot of good could be done with about a month of intensive debugging. We all know that EA forced this game on to the market before the QA cycle was finished. This is most evident from the number of patches that were issued before the game actually hit the stores. This is not good business practiice as it increases the support expense. The heavy hitters in the NAM and other teams have a pretty comprehensive list of things they would like to fix, but we are legally bound not to do so.
Small, Fast and Free: Linux is the program for me.
Writing non-free software is not an ethically legitimate activity,
so if people who do this run into trouble, that's good!
All businesses based on non-free software ought to fail, and the sooner the better. -- Richard Stallman
.
"We have met the enemy, and he is us" - Walt Kelly
Come join us at the Moose Factory
#37
LivingInThePast
-
- Member
-
- 2,223 posts
Court Official
Posted 29 November 2010 - 05:09 PM
I think it's awesome this thread's still active, maybe we could keep it rolling?
Everyone has good points! It's true that we're pretty insignificant as far as coveted demographics goes, but we're easily pleased. We've accepted SC4 for what it is - and that it's a non-3d game.
I was out shopping this weekend and what I did notice is that perhaps SC4: Unplugged might not work for EA. It seems to me, their new favorite word is "Unleashed" so props to Nonny for putting forth SC4: Unleashed. Maybe now EA will consider it?
[continued]
Well, the thing about Falcon 4.0 was it was licensed by Atari.
On Graphsim's official page for Falcon 4.0: Allied Force, the copyright reads "© 2005 by Atari Interactive. All rights reserved. Falcon 4.0: Allied Force produced by Graphsim Entertainment Corp.under exclusive license from Atari Interactive, Inc. FALCON 4.0 and ATARI word marks and logos are trademarks or registered trademarks of Atari Interactive, Inc. in the U.S. and other territories. Used with permission. The LEAD PURSUIT logo is a trademark of Lead Pursuit, LLC. The GRAPHSIM ENTERTAINMENT logo is a trademark of Graphic Simulations Corp. Windows® is a registered trademark of Microsoft Corp. Software platform logo copyright © IEMA™ 2003. Manufactured and marketed by Graphsim Entertainment, Addison, TX ."
So it's still owned by Atari.
The back of SimCity 4 Unleashed could read "©2010 Electronic Arts. All rights reserved. SimCity 4: Unleashed produced by Simtropolis Productions Inc. under exclusive license from Electronic Arts, Inc. SimCity™ and Sims™ are trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. in the U.S. and other territories. Used with permission. The Simtropolis logo is a trademark of Simtropolis.com. Windows® is a registered trademark of Microsoft Corp. Software platform logo copyright © IEMA™ 2003. Manufactured and marketed by Simtropolis Productions, Houston, TX."
I don't know where this holding company would be called or located, I chose Houston as a placeholder.
A prize for hacking the EXE is also asking for trouble.
As for EA accepting it, Atari was losing money in 2005 (and so is EA today), which makes it a little better for usage. EA is making money off of The Sims, we generally aren't making money off of mods (CD/DVD sales -reportedly- only pay for server space). EA makes money off of the license, plus gain a royalty on every copy of SC4U sold. The slightly reduced profit is compensated with more sales, and the license. The trick is to convince them that they'd make more money off the license and the royalties of new sales rather than just continuing sales of the original product.
We can cut costs in the license...the Maxis logo (and possibly references?) will be removed.
Pseudo3D's SimCity 4 has closed once more, so redirect your bookmarks to Carbonizer!
My BAT thread isn't totally gone kaput, it's a work in progress.
#38
Shadow Assassin
-
- Member
-
- 3,210 posts
Corporate Climber
Posted 29 November 2010 - 10:15 PM
speaking of graphic tweaks, I think a "patch" so mac users can enjoy it in full beauty like win users can, might be a thing to consider... somewhere down the line...
Uh, he is referring to the official Mac version of the game. That version basically... sucks, for lack of a better word. Linux wouldn't have these problems because of Wine being capable of running SC4 as if it were native to Linux (well... almost)...
There isn't an official Linux version after all.
#39
A Nonny Moose
-
- Member
-
- 24,488 posts
Simtropophile
- LocationHensall, Ontario, Canada
Posted 30 November 2010 - 06:09 AM
speaking of graphic tweaks, I think a "patch" so mac users can enjoy it in full beauty like win users can, might be a thing to consider... somewhere down the line...
Uh, he is referring to the official Mac version of the game. That version basically... sucks, for lack of a better word. Linux wouldn't have these problems because of Wine being capable of running SC4 as if it were native to Linux (well... almost)...
There isn't an official Linux version after all.
Small, Fast and Free: Linux is the program for me.
Writing non-free software is not an ethically legitimate activity,
so if people who do this run into trouble, that's good!
All businesses based on non-free software ought to fail, and the sooner the better. -- Richard Stallman
.
"We have met the enemy, and he is us" - Walt Kelly
Come join us at the Moose Factory
#40
LivingInThePast
-
- Member
-
- 2,223 posts
Court Official
Posted 30 November 2010 - 06:46 AM
Oh geez, the Mac port is awful. Running it on Intel makes it worst, and the Universal patch reportedly doesn't fix the errors.
Aspyr never patched certain things (nightlights, for one) and never dropped the price.
I don't feel sorry for them.
Aspyr never patched certain things (nightlights, for one) and never dropped the price.
I don't feel sorry for them.
Pseudo3D's SimCity 4 has closed once more, so redirect your bookmarks to Carbonizer!
My BAT thread isn't totally gone kaput, it's a work in progress.
#41
brettonknight
-
- Member
-
- 7 posts
Freshman
Posted 21 December 2010 - 06:04 AM
I am totally behind this idea. There is so much room for SimCity to improve and EA is the only thing holding it back. If I remember correctly they didn't intend for the game to get this complicated since it became hard to sell to people new to the series. But we're not new to the series. I think what everyone here wants is for the game to be more realistic, which is more complicated. There's a lot of people on ST. And if one takes into account SC4D, PEGPROD, and what have you then we're dealing with serious numbers. What is that a million or so? Surely a million fanatical SimCity players can accomplish something. If there's one thing SimCity players seem to have it's determination.
#42
DocRorlach
-
- Member
-
- 849 posts
City Slicker
Posted 21 December 2010 - 06:54 AM
Methinks you are a tad optimistic. Registered users are simply the folks who came here at least once and left their calling card. Even if they only ever played the game for five minutes.
There may well be more than a million people who own or have the game, but the core - those who have been playing, contributing, etc., for years are far fewer in numbers. Personally I would guess at around 10%. As of my writing there are merely 124 visitors to this site. Other sites fare no different. Besides, the likes of EA need to look at the bottom line - as would any potential consortium or cooperative: updating a game such as this will consume thousands of man/woman hours.
Moreover, getting the three main sites and their respective gurus around the same table - or even just into the same chat room - would take a miracle akin to parting the Red Sea.
There may well be more than a million people who own or have the game, but the core - those who have been playing, contributing, etc., for years are far fewer in numbers. Personally I would guess at around 10%. As of my writing there are merely 124 visitors to this site. Other sites fare no different. Besides, the likes of EA need to look at the bottom line - as would any potential consortium or cooperative: updating a game such as this will consume thousands of man/woman hours.
Moreover, getting the three main sites and their respective gurus around the same table - or even just into the same chat room - would take a miracle akin to parting the Red Sea.
#43
brettonknight
-
- Member
-
- 7 posts
Freshman
Posted 21 December 2010 - 09:12 AM
My foray into motivational speaking has been cut short...
#44
DocRorlach
-
- Member
-
- 849 posts
City Slicker
Posted 21 December 2010 - 09:31 AM
I did not mean to curb your enthusiasm, just tweak it a bit towards the reality of things. This is not the first time, nor will it be the last time this issue has been discussed. And although I have seen a lot of good arguments here and elsewhere (yours included), what I have always noticed is that the "Triumvirat" - ergo Dirk, Pegasus, and Jeronji - have been absent from these discussions. To me, that silence is louder than all the aruments put together.
#45
Jamonbread
-
- Member
-
- 151 posts
Dweller
- LocationOakville, Ontario
Posted 21 December 2010 - 11:51 AM
Just a super quick thought. Since the major problem is getting the exe debugged ect which is currently locked and illegal to hack and it will cost money for EA to fix it why not allow those willing in the community to fix it for free for the sake of personal enjoyment to improve the game then sell the patch or whatever you want to call it for a price. I mean it probably wouldnt make a lot but EA hasnt had the best run lately and this way I don't see it costing them anything.
Anyway my person greivance is and this is said hundreds of times their lack of willingness to support the sc4 community at all even when it amounts to no loss to them as I see it and a much better image. Question though, if EA goes under is it legal to hack in? cause that would be awesome
Anyway my person greivance is and this is said hundreds of times their lack of willingness to support the sc4 community at all even when it amounts to no loss to them as I see it and a much better image. Question though, if EA goes under is it legal to hack in? cause that would be awesome
#46
DocRorlach
-
- Member
-
- 849 posts
City Slicker
Posted 21 December 2010 - 12:16 PM
Companies such as EA do not go under - they get swallowed. And whoever gobbles it up also owns all rights the company held prior to the merger. In franchise cases (FIFA, NHL, Sims) those right are often worth more than the lock, stock & barrel. The only way the SC4 license would ever enter the public domain would for EA/Whoever's legal department to be fast asleep or spaced out on eggnogg so that they would let the copyright/trademark et al lapse (it happens, even Beethoven was a post-mortem victim of that, back in the 1970's). Then you could step in, register the new copyright (25 years max) and do as you please.
#47
brettonknight
-
- Member
-
- 7 posts
Freshman
Posted 21 December 2010 - 03:05 PM
My enthusiasm was somewhat rhetorical. This proposition sounds feasible assuming EA doesn't outright say "No." However I think it would take more coordination, funding, and legal prowess than ST currently possesses. I don't believe it's impossible for ST to meet such prerequisites though. It really comes down to how serious are people about this. I personally am willing to put a good deal of effort into this. SimCity has been my only favorite video game so to speak for many years now and possesses such unfulfilled potential. But it'll take a lot more than drive.
ST would need to become much more tightly knit, at least amongst the more involved of us. Communicating in ways aside from here and laying out a real solid gameplan. Estimates for nessesary funding, third party legal consultants (if only to ensure ST isn't dealt a bad hand/possibly provide aid in communicating with EA. I doubt their customer service line has a negotiate business transactions option) and community involvement. More daunting tasks have been accomplished with fewer people (and via similar outlets) But community involvement is key. Like you said if the ST figureheads aren't behind it themselves than it's nothing more than a futile guerrilla war that can't be won. But, dedicate a well connected and coordinated properly funded portion of ST to the cause and there is most definitely a shot.
How to do that though is far beyond me. All I've ever done until lately is lurk. Despite that I would be willing to dedicate real life effort to this cause.
ST would need to become much more tightly knit, at least amongst the more involved of us. Communicating in ways aside from here and laying out a real solid gameplan. Estimates for nessesary funding, third party legal consultants (if only to ensure ST isn't dealt a bad hand/possibly provide aid in communicating with EA. I doubt their customer service line has a negotiate business transactions option) and community involvement. More daunting tasks have been accomplished with fewer people (and via similar outlets) But community involvement is key. Like you said if the ST figureheads aren't behind it themselves than it's nothing more than a futile guerrilla war that can't be won. But, dedicate a well connected and coordinated properly funded portion of ST to the cause and there is most definitely a shot.
How to do that though is far beyond me. All I've ever done until lately is lurk. Despite that I would be willing to dedicate real life effort to this cause.
#48
Wiimeiser
-
- Member
-
- 186 posts
Dweller
Posted 03 January 2011 - 12:51 AM
uhm... dont wanna be the spoilsport here, but you guys did notice that simcity-ish games are, for the time being, a dying niche-genre, didn't you?
there's a reason why these games land on the budget aisle more sooner than later and that the variety of games in this sector is shrinking and shrinking.
#49
A Nonny Moose
-
- Member
-
- 24,488 posts
Simtropophile
- LocationHensall, Ontario, Canada
Posted 03 January 2011 - 07:21 AM
I am glad someone keeps track of the industry trends, because frankly, Scarlett, I won't give a ham. (To mix a couple of metaphors.)
I've been doing some serious study of the causes of crashes in SC4 since I am running with the wine console and can see, sort of, what happens to the game. There are still many holes in the wine environment, it being a work in process and will be as long as Microsoft keeps making changes to Windows. There is a crowd of wine developers, and it is like the red queen in Alice Through the Looking Glass in that you have to run ever so hard to stay in the same place. Mostly the goal of wine is to move the most popular programs (games) to UNIX-like platforms, of which there are several including Linux and O/S X.
So far, I have determined that most CTDs are legitimate because of a dereferenced pointer gone bad. I don't yet know how this happens, but I know what happens. A pointer gets stepped on or was never set, and is either garbage or null. The game cannot survive this because it has no way of recovering the pointer, so it pops out a couple of diagnostic things then does a dump with reason ACCESS_VIOLATION which is true.
The other major cause of CTDs is being worked on by the NAM team, which is the wild loop that happens when you move a cursor loaded with a puzzle piece over a transit enabled item. This causes a stack overflow, which is, again, an ACCESS_VIOLATION. The NAM team is making some progress in fixing this, but working from the outside is very difficult, and they are to be congratulated for tackling such a thing.
I have also had one segment fault, which is probably more related to wine/Linux than the game. A segmentation fault is another kind of missing pointer, but it indicates that the pointer was actually trying to find a non-existent page table. This is too exotic for the period of the game and has to do with the breaking up of the game into paged segments. Linux uses segmentation, but I suspect this will never happen on a windows box because I don't think windows is up to that trick, even if it is supported by the hardware. Segmentation improves the efficiency of your virtual memory, but it adds a level of complication that I don't propose to discuss here. If you want to know about it, there are lots of texts on modern memory management.
The other problem I have been having is related to my graphics hardware which wants to run the game in HD. Rather silly for a legacy game expecting VGA, and even sillier since I don't have an HD monitor. This is a problem with the ATI graphics driver and my fancy AMD/ATI fusion graphics chip (ATI3000). I have a work around using the wine virtual desktop. This forces the graphics system into VGA before the game loads. But this is a symptom of the beginning of the end for the game. As hardware becomes more sophisticated (in the Italian sense), the game will eventually just not run. Has anyone with an HD monitor ever run this game? If so, does it run with HD sound as well? I am not holding my breath on this.
So, my friends, not a general debugging and quality assurance cycle is needed for the game, but a complete overhaul of the media sections to allow continuation onto future machines. My system is fully equipped to run HD, but I don't have the gear (yet), and so don't know what will happen if I ever do. If I ever get an HD TV monitor, I might be able to test and find out. I most certainly have the hubs on my back plane to do it. The video plugin seems to be many, many pins, and the sound hub is one I have never seen before. Technology is on yet another higher level, and this low-tech game may very well be headed for the scrap heap of fond memories.
I've been doing some serious study of the causes of crashes in SC4 since I am running with the wine console and can see, sort of, what happens to the game. There are still many holes in the wine environment, it being a work in process and will be as long as Microsoft keeps making changes to Windows. There is a crowd of wine developers, and it is like the red queen in Alice Through the Looking Glass in that you have to run ever so hard to stay in the same place. Mostly the goal of wine is to move the most popular programs (games) to UNIX-like platforms, of which there are several including Linux and O/S X.
So far, I have determined that most CTDs are legitimate because of a dereferenced pointer gone bad. I don't yet know how this happens, but I know what happens. A pointer gets stepped on or was never set, and is either garbage or null. The game cannot survive this because it has no way of recovering the pointer, so it pops out a couple of diagnostic things then does a dump with reason ACCESS_VIOLATION which is true.
The other major cause of CTDs is being worked on by the NAM team, which is the wild loop that happens when you move a cursor loaded with a puzzle piece over a transit enabled item. This causes a stack overflow, which is, again, an ACCESS_VIOLATION. The NAM team is making some progress in fixing this, but working from the outside is very difficult, and they are to be congratulated for tackling such a thing.
I have also had one segment fault, which is probably more related to wine/Linux than the game. A segmentation fault is another kind of missing pointer, but it indicates that the pointer was actually trying to find a non-existent page table. This is too exotic for the period of the game and has to do with the breaking up of the game into paged segments. Linux uses segmentation, but I suspect this will never happen on a windows box because I don't think windows is up to that trick, even if it is supported by the hardware. Segmentation improves the efficiency of your virtual memory, but it adds a level of complication that I don't propose to discuss here. If you want to know about it, there are lots of texts on modern memory management.
The other problem I have been having is related to my graphics hardware which wants to run the game in HD. Rather silly for a legacy game expecting VGA, and even sillier since I don't have an HD monitor. This is a problem with the ATI graphics driver and my fancy AMD/ATI fusion graphics chip (ATI3000). I have a work around using the wine virtual desktop. This forces the graphics system into VGA before the game loads. But this is a symptom of the beginning of the end for the game. As hardware becomes more sophisticated (in the Italian sense), the game will eventually just not run. Has anyone with an HD monitor ever run this game? If so, does it run with HD sound as well? I am not holding my breath on this.
So, my friends, not a general debugging and quality assurance cycle is needed for the game, but a complete overhaul of the media sections to allow continuation onto future machines. My system is fully equipped to run HD, but I don't have the gear (yet), and so don't know what will happen if I ever do. If I ever get an HD TV monitor, I might be able to test and find out. I most certainly have the hubs on my back plane to do it. The video plugin seems to be many, many pins, and the sound hub is one I have never seen before. Technology is on yet another higher level, and this low-tech game may very well be headed for the scrap heap of fond memories.
Small, Fast and Free: Linux is the program for me.
Writing non-free software is not an ethically legitimate activity,
so if people who do this run into trouble, that's good!
All businesses based on non-free software ought to fail, and the sooner the better. -- Richard Stallman
.
"We have met the enemy, and he is us" - Walt Kelly
Come join us at the Moose Factory
#50
LivingInThePast
-
- Member
-
- 2,223 posts
Court Official
Posted 06 January 2011 - 10:26 AM
Do you have an HDTV in your living room? It might be able to connect.
Pseudo3D's SimCity 4 has closed once more, so redirect your bookmarks to Carbonizer!
My BAT thread isn't totally gone kaput, it's a work in progress.
#51
A Nonny Moose
-
- Member
-
- 24,488 posts
Simtropophile
- LocationHensall, Ontario, Canada
Posted 07 January 2011 - 06:24 AM
At the moment it is NTSC. It is next on my aquisition list, and I expect to be able to connect my monitor port. If I do, I may well get a TV tuner for my machine, which will allow a lot of options.
Small, Fast and Free: Linux is the program for me.
Writing non-free software is not an ethically legitimate activity,
so if people who do this run into trouble, that's good!
All businesses based on non-free software ought to fail, and the sooner the better. -- Richard Stallman
.
"We have met the enemy, and he is us" - Walt Kelly
Come join us at the Moose Factory
#52
Cobhris96
-
- Member
-
- 919 posts
Reservist
Posted 07 January 2011 - 12:38 PM
Plays fine on my monitor. It's 1050p rather than 1080p, but runs the game flawlessly with a Radeon HD5770 connected with DVI. Haven't used standard VGA nor standard monitors in years; the last one died sometime around 2005/2006 IIRC.
#53
sachizm
-
- Member
-
- 22 posts
Sophomore
Posted 09 January 2011 - 03:31 PM
I'm an example of a 'non hardcore' user who would contribute money to this. I bought the game back around 04. Built a couple reigons then lost interest due to the other packaged reigons being so boring and it being so frustrating trying to build new ones in the game. A year or two ago I discovered this site and got really excited at the idea of so much content. Spent many hours on this site getting upto speed. Had to source the game again on Ebay, downloaded a bucket of content ready to start a new reigon then when I finally got to playing, the instability of the game got me so frustrated I gave up again, mind you this was probably after 20 - 30 hours just of setting up my map and getting content (the terraformer was what I always dreamed of). I just downloaded the game again from EA's site and am already having enough difficulties that I'm close to giving up again.
I do not want 3D graphics or updated interface or any of that crap. I want to play this game and for it to work! I want to experiance all the things NAM is supposed to fix that used to make me question the intelligence of the original game designers. The only other game I am interested in has the same problems. Civ 4 has a great modding community and some mods have an insane amount of content. The problem is you can play it until it gets a bit interesting then everything falls to *****. Because you've seen all the amazing stuff just out of reach its impossible to go back to the vanilla version of the game. then you question why you've wasted so many hours in front of a computer and go out and socialize instead (I'm sure thats a game companies worst fear).
So myself and a number of friends I know who have not played this in 5+ years would happily pay you guys to program a working version of this game. Infact I would rather give this community double the sales price of the game if EA did not get a cent. I hate more then anything being sold a defunct product. besides the users on this forum I'm sure if you got the news out via game sites and more importantly, architect and city planning forums you would get 1000's more who would go dust off their long neglected copy or buy a new one.
I do not want 3D graphics or updated interface or any of that crap. I want to play this game and for it to work! I want to experiance all the things NAM is supposed to fix that used to make me question the intelligence of the original game designers. The only other game I am interested in has the same problems. Civ 4 has a great modding community and some mods have an insane amount of content. The problem is you can play it until it gets a bit interesting then everything falls to *****. Because you've seen all the amazing stuff just out of reach its impossible to go back to the vanilla version of the game. then you question why you've wasted so many hours in front of a computer and go out and socialize instead (I'm sure thats a game companies worst fear).
So myself and a number of friends I know who have not played this in 5+ years would happily pay you guys to program a working version of this game. Infact I would rather give this community double the sales price of the game if EA did not get a cent. I hate more then anything being sold a defunct product. besides the users on this forum I'm sure if you got the news out via game sites and more importantly, architect and city planning forums you would get 1000's more who would go dust off their long neglected copy or buy a new one.
#54
A Nonny Moose
-
- Member
-
- 24,488 posts
Simtropophile
- LocationHensall, Ontario, Canada
Posted 10 January 2011 - 08:57 AM
Plays fine on my monitor. It's 1050p rather than 1080p, but runs the game flawlessly with a Radeon HD5770 connected with DVI. Haven't used standard VGA nor standard monitors in years; the last one died sometime around 2005/2006 IIRC.
@sachizm: Part of the fun of this game is getting it to run at all. You are expecting it to be like a home applicance, then it is not for you.
You have to be a bit of a persistent computer rat and know just a little about your machine to really get this game going. I happen to be running on Linux (UBUNTU 10.10 x86_64 decor) using the wine compatibilitty layer for windows, so you would expect that I would have a lot of trouble with crashes, but I don't. The trick is to save frequently (CTRL+s) after you've done something you don't want to do again (I believe in insurance, of which more later). Recently, I've found that turning clouds off reduces the number of CTDs, so I can live without them.
Of all the computer games I have played, starting with Rogue on UNIX probably before your father was born, SimCity 4 is far and away the best one to my taste. I've been playing it since the early 2000s. However, it is an acquired taste. If you don't have the patience to suffer the learning curve, you might as well pack it in. We've been struggling with EA (loud silence) for nearly a decade now, and I hold no hope for anything useful from that pit of avarice. They are in a comfortable pew.
About insurance: I create an archive of my entire user space once a month, and if I need to do so, I make a special archive from SimCity 4. Over in Bugs and Technical Issues, I published a method for doing this that saves the entire game. Somewhat techy. You have to use the Registry Editor.
Maybe I am a special case since I've been a computer programmer since 1962, and a general computer rat and tool provider for just about as long. Of course I am retired now, but I did spend my last ten years as a professor of computer science in a local college. I guess computers are just in my blood.
Small, Fast and Free: Linux is the program for me.
Writing non-free software is not an ethically legitimate activity,
so if people who do this run into trouble, that's good!
All businesses based on non-free software ought to fail, and the sooner the better. -- Richard Stallman
.
"We have met the enemy, and he is us" - Walt Kelly
Come join us at the Moose Factory
#55
whrm33
-
- Member
-
- 35 posts
Sophomore
- LocationIllinois, United States
Posted 10 January 2011 - 05:33 PM
Heh. If you guys do this, maybe we can finally find out what that 2nd SC4 EP was 
#56
wozzar
-
- Member
-
- 101 posts
Senior
Posted 11 January 2011 - 01:05 AM
I suppose that if EA loses enough money, they'll just dip into their cash reserves and buy out a more profitable company.
#57
wozzar
-
- Member
-
- 101 posts
Senior
Posted 11 January 2011 - 01:24 AM
My proposal would be to buy SC4 outright. If you combine the member's from other sim sites and this site and we all contributed a certain amount of money we could have enough money to buy the game from EA. And we all would be shareholders.
#58
A Nonny Moose
-
- Member
-
- 24,488 posts
Simtropophile
- LocationHensall, Ontario, Canada
Posted 11 January 2011 - 07:22 AM
My proposal would be to buy SC4 outright. If you combine the member's from other sim sites and this site and we all contributed a certain amount of money we could have enough money to buy the game from EA. And we all would be shareholders.
Small, Fast and Free: Linux is the program for me.
Writing non-free software is not an ethically legitimate activity,
so if people who do this run into trouble, that's good!
All businesses based on non-free software ought to fail, and the sooner the better. -- Richard Stallman
.
"We have met the enemy, and he is us" - Walt Kelly
Come join us at the Moose Factory
#59
wozzar
-
- Member
-
- 101 posts
Senior
Posted 11 January 2011 - 07:20 PM
My proposal would be to buy SC4 outright. If you combine the member's from other sim sites and this site and we all contributed a certain amount of money we could have enough money to buy the game from EA. And we all would be shareholders.
But seriously we do have enough members. At Simtroplois we have 366,893 members. I don't know how much the game is worth. But if every member put in $100.00 you would have $36,689,300 or if you put in $50.00 you would have $18,344,650. Yes i know not every member is active. So if you only had half of the members put in $50.00 you would have $9,172,325. Like i said i don't know what the game is worth now but i am sure the calculations i have done here would more than cover it and if you combine it with the other web sites we would have more than enough and maybe even take over EA LOL.
As for the structure of the company. Every shareholder would have a equal share either it be $50.00 or a $100.00 what ever we decide on how much we should put in.and the limit is one share per member. Any profits would go back to the members or the member could elect to have the profit put back into the company.
The company would be run by a shareholder committee who are elected by the share holders. The committee would be responsible for the hiring of the management to run the company and develop the game. Other games would be develop to support the cash flow for the continual development of SC4.
#60
A Nonny Moose
-
- Member
-
- 24,488 posts
Simtropophile
- LocationHensall, Ontario, Canada
Posted 12 January 2011 - 07:28 AM
Well, some interesting calculations. Have you considered where it would be domiciled? Simtropolis is a Canadian site, and we have a multi-national membership. I should think we would like to avoid being domiciled in the U.S.A. because of the current economic situation there.
Before you have a stock company, even a private one, you have to have articles of incorporation, and you are liab le for annual corporate taxes, so you have to be sure of what you are doing.
Before you have a stock company, even a private one, you have to have articles of incorporation, and you are liab le for annual corporate taxes, so you have to be sure of what you are doing.
Small, Fast and Free: Linux is the program for me.
Writing non-free software is not an ethically legitimate activity,
so if people who do this run into trouble, that's good!
All businesses based on non-free software ought to fail, and the sooner the better. -- Richard Stallman
.
"We have met the enemy, and he is us" - Walt Kelly
Come join us at the Moose Factory
0 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users
