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Barry Bull

Stagnation in a Large City-What's the Problem?

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Greetings, this is my first post here and very happy to join this esteemed site. 

I am working on the sole large tile in the London Region map and happily building a booming city with approx. 390,000 people. I have started to use all the wonderful new buildings available in STEX which helps to develop my city more across the Thames. NAM is in use since day 1.

However, my commercial zones failed to develop across the Thames even the older part of city north of the Thames is doing well. The charts also show that I have demands for all types of commercial jobs except Co$$$. My education and health coverage is excellent. Grateful if anyone can shed light on my predicament. 

20170815_234916.jpg

20170815_235041.jpg

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Hello and welcome to the community. *:thumb: Well, my guess is that you might need to develop more low wealth residential areas to fulfil all the demand for CS$ and CS$$, because simply put it is like in real life. You need the most poor people living in residential areas, medium R$$ residents and only a few rich R$$$ residents to make it work. Just a guess, and I am sure the great gurus here have something to say. *;)

Kind regards!

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Barry Bull    1
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  • 1 hour ago, markussaage said:

    Hello and welcome to the community. *:thumb: Well, my guess is that you might need to develop more low wealth residential areas to fulfil all the demand for CS$ and CS$$, because simply put it is like in real life. You need the most poor people living in residential areas, medium R$$ residents and only a few rich R$$$ residents to make it work. Just a guess, and I am sure the great gurus here have something to say. *;)

    Kind regards!

    I do wonder whether it is a problem of lack of poor residential pop or not enough jobs.

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    Some thing to consider:

    1) Make sure you have enough neighbor connections.  This will relieve demand caps and possibly stimulate growth.  It is a good idea to think "regionally" and develop surrounding cities to help supply any demand needs.

    2) Develop a good mass tansit system.  Placing bus stops around the city will help the Sims commute easier and I find stimulates growth.

    3) Make sure you place any rewards that you have received.  This also relieves demand caps and helps growth.  A word of warning, do not place the Opera House reward unless you have the Oprea House Mod fix in place.  The unpatched Opera House will crash you high wealth residental demand.

    4) Make sure your desireabilty for each developer type is high.  Place parks and plazas around the city to increase desireability.

    5) As you can afford it, make sure your city is covered by city services...Police, Fire, Health and education.  These will increase desireability and also in the long run create higher demand for the wealthier developer types.

     

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    I think looking at the demand graph there is no real problem here, demand is pretty healthy, despite the negative demand for CO$$$. All that means is that you've got more CO$$$ jobs than your economy can support, either because the buildings grew a little too quickly or because conditions changed after their growth that led to a lower demand. The conditions for attracting CO$$$ demand are the hardest in the game to realise, but if you give it time and ensure the right conditions are in place, you should find demand returns to a positive after a while.

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    Barry Bull    1
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    3 hours ago, rsc204 said:

    I think looking at the demand graph there is no real problem here, demand is pretty healthy, despite the negative demand for CO$$$. All that means is that you've got more CO$$$ jobs than your economy can support, either because the buildings grew a little too quickly or because conditions changed after their growth that led to a lower demand. The conditions for attracting CO$$$ demand are the hardest in the game to realise, but if you give it time and ensure the right conditions are in place, you should find demand returns to a positive after a while.

    How many jobs (both commerical and industrial) are needed? Looking at the Job and Pop chart, it seems the no. of jobs available are much lower than the residential pop. Would that be a problem?

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    The data in game isn't always laid out so clearly, not to mention some of it is not entirely accurate either, but that's a bit of a can of worms to get into here.

    In short, of your total residential population, about 50% will require jobs. That is to take into account retired people, those in education and families where only one adult is working. However the Jobs and Population graphs only tell you the number of residents and employed sims, it doesn't show available jobs. To really get some better data on that, I'd recommend installing and using the Census Repository, which will give you a region-wide view of employment/demands & population. Including the predicted demand growth for the future or "Drives".

    But the key things to remember are much harder to track, yet lay at the very heart of the simulation. That is the balance of R$/R$$/R$$$ sims, because not only do you need to have the right wealth sims for a particular job, it's also important that those sims are suitably educated for the jobs in question. The whole simulator is designed to "level" through the following:

    Uneducated                   Basic Education        Highly Educated
    I-AG or I-D             -->              I-M              -->          I-HT
    CS$                        -->             CS$$           -->          CS$$$
                                                    CO$$           -->          CO$$$

    Of course that's greatly simplified, but without education, you'll never see good demand beyond Farms and Dirty Industry and low wealth shops. But what I really am trying to convey is how when starting out, you might have a sim who doesn't get educated. That sim will take a job with no education requirements and happily remain in that job. But once you have a more educated population, those sims will not want to work below their education level, which is commonplace in the real world.

    Not to mention, even in Highly Educated category, a small percentage of the actual jobs are R$$$, the bulk may be R$$ in addition to R$ workers too. Knowing who will work where or how to ensure the correct zones grow to accommodate these needs is very tricky. For the most part the simulator is designed to manage this, by growing what's needed. But, it can only work on the data it has when it grows buildings, yet that data is constantly changing. Think of this a bit like an economy works, you can have slow but stable growth, sometimes there is a slowdown, but in general the economy can weather a storm. Or you can have a boom and bust economy, with good times and quick growth, but when things start to shake, you get a long downturn or depression. In practise that occurs because something changes, a water pump reaches the end of it's life or capacity, however briefly, it can mess with demands and occupancy rates. Similarly so can such changes with Education, Health or Police/Fire services. Such small changes lead either to a bump in the economy or a downturn, if you are slowly building/zoning and not rushing things, you'll probably just get beyond the bump, but if you are one of those players that is moving too quickly, sometimes you can end up in a downward spiral as the changes going on do not catch up with the simulator, leading to problems.

    Another example of how the basic gameplay mechanics can work against you is with the wealth of developments. Assuming you've met the requirements for higher wealth demands, the game will prefer to grow those over lower wealths. But it might be you are in need of those lower wealth to keep everything balanced. So let's say a CO$$$ tower needs 30 R$$$ sims, 250 R$$ sims and 45 R$ sims. The simulator has demand for the R$$$, which will grow in preference to the other wealths (assuming the conditions are right), but that business can't stay open without the R$$ and R$ sims needed to make it work. In essence it'd be an office full of managers, with no other employees to work there getting things done. So in essence, the game might want to build R$$$ (or upgrade existing lots), but it can be counter productive. A good tip for this is keep areas of the city less glamorous than others, you need some slums to make the whole work. Note also how areas which are completely devoid of developments, tend to start with lower wealth/density buildings. That's again down to the simulator, which is designed for areas to improve and grow over time.

    One last thing to note is how CO$$$ has specific needs for healthy demand, it's by far and away the hardest to maintain of all the zoning types. They should have low pollution, good transport links (a station/bus stop etc nearby), low-med traffic and Plazas, parks and trees help to make them more desirable.

    Obviously there is a lot to take in here, it may not all be applicable to your situation either. But to summarise, I'll go back to my previous post and say, just keep chipping away slowly and I'm pretty certain the demand will return. But it's by no means a bad thing to have some negative demand, it can simply mean you've got the ratio of CO$$$ in place that your game can currently support, which in the grand scheme of things is pretty low, maybe around 10%. Perhaps you've capped-out demand, but in-practise that's rarely the cause, the Census Repository will instantly tell you if this is the case however.

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    Barry Bull    1
  • Original Poster
  • 2 hours ago, rsc204 said:

    The data in game isn't always laid out so clearly, not to mention some of it is not entirely accurate either, but that's a bit of a can of worms to get into here.

    I short, of your total residential population, about 50% will require jobs. That is to take into account retired people, those in education and families where only one adult is working. However the Jobs and Population graphs only tell you the number of residents and employed sims, it doesn't show available jobs. To really get some better data on that, I'd recommend installing and using the Census Repository, which will give you a region-wide view of employment/demands & population. Including the predicted demand growth for the future or "Drives".

    But the key things to remember are much harder to track, yet lay at the very heart of the simulation. That is the balance of R$/R$$/R$$$ sims, because not only do you need to have the right wealth sims for a particular job, it's also important that those sims are suitably educated for the jobs in question. The whole simulator is designed to "level" through the following:

    Uneducated                   Basic Education        Highly Educated
    I-AG or I-D             -->              I-M              -->          I-HT
    CS$                        -->             CS$$           -->          CS$$$
                                                    CO$$           -->          CO$$$

    Of course that's greatly simplified, but without education, you'll never see good demand beyond Farms and Dirty Industry and low wealth shops. But what I really am trying to convey is how when starting out, you might have a sim who doesn't get educated. That sim will take a job with no education requirements and happily remain in that job. But once you have a more educated population, those sims will not want to work below their education level, which is commonplace in the real world.

    Not to mention, even in Highly Educated category, a small percentage of the actual jobs are R$$$, the bulk may be R$$ in addition to R$ workers too. Knowing who will work where or how to ensure the correct zones grow to accommodate these needs is very tricky. For the most part the simulator is designed to manage this, by growing what's needed. But, it can only work on the data it has when it grows buildings, yet that data is constantly changing. Think of this a bit like an economy works, you can have slow but stable growth, sometimes there is a slowdown, but in general the economy can weather a storm. Or you can have a boom and bust economy, with good times and quick growth, but when things start to shake, you get a long downturn or depression. In practise that occurs because something changes, a water pump reaches the end of it's life or capacity, however briefly, it can mess with demands and occupancy rates. Similarly so can such changes with Education, Health or Police/Fire services. Such small changes lead either to a bump in the economy or a downturn, if you are slowly building/zoning and not rushing things, you'll probably just get beyond the bump, but if you are one of those players that is moving too quickly, sometimes you can end up in a downward spiral as the changes going on do not catch up with the simulator, leading to problems.

    Another example of how the basic gameplay mechanics can work against you is with the wealth of developments. Assuming you've met the requirements for higher wealth demands, the game will prefer to grow those over lower wealths. But it might be you are in need of those lower wealth to keep everything balanced. So let's say a CO$$$ tower needs 30 R$$$ sims, 250 R$$ sims and 45 R$ sims. The simulator has demand for the R$$$, which will grow in preference to the other wealths (assuming the conditions are right), but that business can't stay open without the R$$ and R$ sims needed to make it work. In essence it'd be an office full of managers, with no other employees to work there getting things done. So in essence, the game might want to build R$$$ (or upgrade existing lots), but it can be counter productive. A good tip for this is keep areas of the city less glamorous than others, you need some slums to make the whole work. Note also how areas which are completely devoid of developments, tend to start with lower wealth/density buildings. That's again down to the simulator, which is designed for areas to improve and grow over time.

    One last thing to note is how CO$$$ has specific needs for healthy demand, it's by far and away the hardest to maintain of all the zoning types. They should have low pollution, good transport links (a station/bus stop etc nearby), low-med traffic and Plazas, parks and trees help to make them more desirable.

    Obviously there is a lot to take in here, it may not all be applicable to your situation either. But to summarise, I'll go back to my previous post and say, just keep chipping away slowly and I'm pretty certain the demand will return. But it's by no means a bad thing to have some negative demand, it can simply mean you've got the ratio of CO$$$ in place that your game can currently support, which in the grand scheme of things is pretty low, maybe around 10%. Perhaps you've capped-out demand, but in-practise that's rarely the cause, the Census Repository will instantly tell you if this is the case however.

     

    Many thanks for all the suggestions. I will certainly give the Census Repository a try, but I did noticed that my R$ population seems to be upgraded to R$$ pop pretty fast. The R$ pop increase with new residential zones at the edge of the map, but the pop chart subsequently show decrease in R$ pop and a corresponding increase in R$$ pop. 

    Also, I take it that it is not a good idea to go for all around coverage of public services, but what about education? Would a well-educated pop actually be detrimental as no one want to work in CS$ or stay as R$ pop?

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    6 hours ago, Barry Bull said:

     

    ... but I did noticed that my R$ population seems to be upgraded to R$$ pop pretty fast.

    Yeah, that's what is going to happen, when you educate your Sims. The only thing you can do to prevent that is, mark all R$ residential homes as "Historical" in the query window. That prevents the game from replacing those buildings with higher educated R$$ or R$$$ homes, so you can keep a level of poor Sims in your cities. Unfortunately this has to done by hand. There is no way you can do this all in ones... On the other hand, when you mark your buildings as "Historical", you'll need to develop more residential areas to fulfil the demand of R$$ or R$$$, and that means, your city will grow. Don't forget to make your commercial CS$ "Historical" as well. Otherwise they'll be replaced sooner or later by CO$$ or CO$$$ offices and that means, your poor Sims won't find a job anymore and you'll see the No-Job-Zot appear over your homes.... It's a hassle... *:D*;)

    Kind regards!

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    56 minutes ago, markussaage said:

    The only thing you can do to prevent that is, mark all R$ residential homes as "Historical" in the query window. That prevents the game from replacing those buildings with higher educated R$$ or R$$$ homes, so you can keep a level of poor Sims in your cities.

    Another option is to mod the Building Development exemplar setting 0x47e2c540 - Tract Developer Kick Out Lower Wealth to False. *;) That's what I've done and I love it.

    00 Kickout False.jpg

    I use it in conjunction with the Less Abandonment Mod. And now I can have this without marking any of them historical:

    02 LMH Wealth.jpg

    ^ You can see more low wealth res north of the pond too.

    More details here and here.

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    Let me guess: This completely prevents buildings of a given wealth level from being overgrown by buildings of a higher wealth level, right? However, bigger buildings of the same wealth level should still be able to replace them, provided a bigger building is available that can grow given the current growth stage, demand, desirability, and lot size/density, I guess?

    So if you want to see if you can get medium-wealth residential on those 1x2 lots in the top right corner of the screenshot, you'd have to bulldoze first, is that correct?

    [I admit I haven't read through the threads you have linked yet]

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    @T Wrecks

    Yep. You have it all exactly correct. They do upgrade to the highest in their wealth level as the game progresses and demand increases. Bulldozing lower wealth does then allow higher wealth to grow there. I like that it gives me so much more control without having to micromanage my city. Clicking historical on hundreds of buildings just isn't my idea of fun. And when I'm ready for a higher wealth subdivision I get to decide that. Also, no more abandoned and repopulated buildings looking all dingy and gray when the game gets overly enthusiastic about growing or upgrading to higher wealth that really won't be supported. (Note: It's the combination of both mods for this. No Kick Out preventing unwarranted upgrades and Less Abandonment for not building stuff the city really isn't ready for.)

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    I must confess, how education works I still didn't understand very well. But if I compare the jobs in my younger cities with graph 'population by age' - I have no doubt: childrens work is allowed in SC4. So that's a scandal.

     

    Now each educational lot covers a certain age. Basic schools educate sims roundabout between 10 and 30 years old., high schools educate sims between 20 and 50 and museums and opera they educate sims above 50.

    This means; placing a museum in a city with only young population is wasted money as there are simply no sims that can take advantage of it.

    Now every educational lot has also a certain EQ boost. A rate the EQ grows every month on the sims with the matching age. 

    What I don't now - how education drives wealth exactly. Is it dependent on a certain EQ level or simply by coverage?

    Now practically you can educate sims to a certain amount of EQ. If you have only basic schools in your city there will be only for a certain time an eq boost and when they are around 30 years old the boost will stop. Looking at EQ graph of my cities there seems to be an EQ drop if sims stop learning, but I'm not entirely shure about that. To raise eq even more you have to build a school for the next age group - so sims continue to learn - a high school.

    This means - to my understanding - two things:

    1. The amount of schools isn't important to eq - you can't boost eq by placing 5 ground schools in one place - instead the boost each school gives, to cover all age groups and life expectation of your sims are the keys to a high eq. This means if you have a single school in your city, maybe a custom one with an exagerated modded eq boost and a wide coverage - and this school matches the age group were your population mainly is in - it's already enough to eliminate most of the R$ sims.

    2. You have to look on your age graph - if life expectation is quite low and you builded some schools recently it might happen that the old uneducated sims, occupying the low wealth jobs die away in a few years and only young, well educated are left and this may lead to a quite sudden change.

    But take this with caution - I'm not entirely shure how education works.

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    1 hour ago, CorinaMarie said:

    Another option is to mod the Building Development exemplar setting 0x47e2c540 - Tract Developer Kick Out Lower Wealth to False. *;) That's what I've done and I love it.

    00 Kickout False.jpg

    I use it in conjunction with the Less Abandonment Mod. And now I can have this without marking any of them historical:

    ^ You can see more low wealth res north of the pond too.

    More details here and here.

    Well, this is very interesting, and I didn't know about it. *:thumb: But with this setting, as @twrecks mentioned, it's all or nothing... Right?!  *:8) With the "Historical" setting you have at least a choice, what buildings you wanna keep or not... Everybody's approach to this game is different... I might give it a try some day and see, how it will affect the whole city wide development.

    Thanks, @CorinaMarie!

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    3 minutes ago, Fantozzi said:

    I must confess, how education works I still didn't understand very well. But if I compare the jobs in my younger cities with graph 'population by age' - I have no doubt: childrens work is allowed in SC4. So that's a scandal.

    @CorinaMarie did a research about this here:

    Quite interesting and eye opening I think!

    Kind regards!

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    Barry Bull    1
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  • Having downloaded the Census Repository, the result it displayed is astonishing. It seems that pop/ job cap is not a problem. What's wrong then?

     

     

    Census.jpg

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    TBH I've played SC4 for almost 10 years but I still have this problem in larger city mostly when its above 200k population. In my case mostly about residential, I zone them and nothing grow even for 10 game years. I've checked everything from services, demand (which is almost in top) neighbor connection, and demand cap. my current theory is about the game simulation limitation even in modern hardware as the game just run in single core. When I zone the residential it always get no road access zots (in large city) for at least 1 game year until they disappeared. This mostly happened to large tile city where it need more power to run simulation.

    Anyone know the real explanation behind this? I would thank you very much if this can be solved.

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    1 hour ago, Namiko said:

    Anyone know the real explanation behind this? I would thank you very much if this can be solved.

    Most likely it's the pathfinder, as you speculate when cities get very large, the number of calculations needed grows exponentially to find routes to jobs for all the sims. This will stress any hardware you can buy today, which essentially means the pathfinder needs to catch up before the sims can find work. Although the time it's taking in your example is a little extreme, perhaps suggesting you could have a more efficient transport infrastructure. In any case I don't think the problem is the same as outlined here.

    2 hours ago, Barry Bull said:

    It seems that pop/ job cap is not a problem. What's wrong then?

    People often suggest the Caps are an issue, but they rarely are, since the game is balanced to overcome them. But a cap isn't the percentage of a given type of zone that can exist, it's simply one part of the puzzle. To get a more in-depth idea of how Caps work, see here, although it should be noted Caps work separately from Demand, even if the two are linked somewhat.

    In theory if you are at 6% of the Cap for CO$$$, does this mean you could have 94% more CO$$$ buildings at this point? Not necessarily, although there is no cap limit preventing that, you'd still need to generate the actual demand before those buildings could grow. Not to mention, somewhere in adding that 94%, you'd likely see a cap boost along the way. The simulator is designed to boost caps as you increase the population and workforce. It also is boosted by parks, rewards, neighbour connections and the amount of freight shipped. In short, the cap is fluid and only becomes an issue if you reach the Cap, in which case regardless of demand, no further zones of that type would grow. See how the IR cap is 100%? This is quite normal, because once your city becomes well educated, the game is designed to prevent more farming demand. Because Maxis only envisioned using this to kick-start cities by creating lots of R$ jobs. So IR demand will always fall off once you've got a well educated workforce or reach the meagre 30k cap limit. However IR is unique in this way, similarly CS demand has no caps whatsoever, you can literally have as many as demand will allow.

    Looking at the figures from the Census Repository, which are in no way simple to interpret, I don't see any huge obvious problems. The region-wide workforce is 254k and you have 250k jobs, so around 4k jobs are needed to keep everyone in employment. I guess in the first instance you should try to create some new jobs, C or I to address that small imbalance. But I wouldn't discount a need for more R$ sims, since typically around 50% of jobs will be for R$ sims. Whilst currently you have 38% R$, 50% R$$ and 12% R$$$. So it does suggest perhaps you have too many R$$ sims and need more R$ sims. I'd say somewhere around 50% R$, 40% R$$ and 10% R$$$ is a good balance to aim for. As others have noted, the game does not make this happen too easily. That said, even if you get past both these hurdles, simply not seeing positive demand for one type of zoning does not mean something is broken. Demand can and will fluctuate, provided it is overall in the positive, that tells me things are moving along just fine.

    Incidently, if you want to take a screenshot in-game, use the Key Combination CTRL+SHIFT+S. The resulting image is saved in the folder of Documents\SimCity 4\Albums. This will be a very large PNG file, so before uploading, you should convert it to a JPEG, MS Paint will do this.

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    7 hours ago, markussaage said:

    But with this setting, as @twrecks mentioned, it's all or nothing... Right?!  *:8) With the "Historical" setting you have at least a choice, what buildings you wanna keep or not...

    Yep. All the time you have the mod in your plugins it does its magic. Basically, you then use the tax rates to get what you want to grow. And, ofc, the bulldozer if you want a lower wealth parcel or area to grow as higher wealth provided you have the demand and the desirability is in place.

    Historical does give you more selective control at the expense of massive amount of clicks.

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    16 hours ago, Barry Bull said:

    my R$ population seems to be upgraded to R$$ pop pretty fast

    I read in one of these forums that R$$ required a park within 20 spaces. I haven't tested it, but it would be a simple control mechanism to keep some R$: Just leave gaps in park coverage.

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    10 minutes ago, jeffryfisher said:

    I read in one of these forums that R$$ required a park within 20 spaces.

    I'll suggest this isn't the case. Since I play mostly low density farm communities I don't go plopping parks until I want to spur higher wealth Comm or HT in little towns. As the population grows and I add fire and medical facilities a few R$$ will grow.

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    4 hours ago, jeffryfisher said:

    I read in one of these forums that R$$ required a park within 20 spaces. I haven't tested it, but it would be a simple control mechanism to keep some R$: Just leave gaps in park coverage.

    I'm not sure it's quite that simple, I don't use a lot of parks and the like, but then again many lots include similar effects. But you are on the right lines, it isn't about denying sims access to education or healthcare and other services. If you can keep the desirability low enough that R$$ and R$$$ will never want to live there, an area will remain R$. This is possible with a little care and thought. Use of NIMBY lots nearby such areas can help too.

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    Barry Bull    1
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  • 46 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

    I'm not sure it's quite that simple, I don't use a lot of parks and the like, but then again many lots include similar effects. But you are on the right lines, it isn't about denying sims access to education or healthcare and other services. If you can keep the desirability low enough that R$$ and R$$$ will never want to live there, an area will remain R$. This is possible with a little care and thought. Use of NIMBY lots nearby such areas can help too.

    I guess that's one of the reasons why my R$ pop got uplifted so quickly. The desirability for all 3 types of R pops shot through the roof across the map in my city. What counts as NIMBY lots? I-D? Power stations? Garbage-related facilities?

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    Anything which pollutes or otherwise makes an area undesirable, even a sufficient volume of traffic (pollution) will help. The thing is, R$ sims will tolerate pretty much anything and still live in such areas. By comparison, R$$ and $$$ sims get much more picky about where they will live. Of course you don't want to overdo it, because such effects can spread to other areas. Just simply not putting nice things like parks, trees and other YIMBY items in an area can also be an effective strategy.

    One common problem people have is that they are trying too hard to make everything in their cities all nice and pretty. But this has the effect of preventing further R$ development, since like in real life, R$ can't afford to live in expensive areas. Just take a look at land values in the graphs, if that's too high, don't expect R$ to move in. However, if R$ are living in higher valued areas already, they won't move out, but the simulator is likely to upgrade the buildings. Which is where "Make Historical" comes into play. If you just do this for a bunch of high-rise R$ buildings, that will go some way to avoid the problem.

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    1 hour ago, rsc204 said:

    One common problem people have is that they are trying too hard to make everything in their cities all nice and pretty. But this has the effect of preventing further R$ development, since like in real life, R$ can't afford to live in expensive areas. Just take a look at land values in the graphs, if that's too high, don't expect R$ to move in. However, if R$ are living in higher valued areas already, they won't move out, but the simulator is likely to upgrade the buildings. Which is where "Make Historical" comes into play. If you just do this for a bunch of high-rise R$ buildings, that will go some way to avoid the problem.

    Amusingly, this is actually an ironic simulation argument for a strategy of "the projects"...a large development of R$ public housing high-rises where we can conveniently concentrate all the R$ sims so as to leave the rest of our simcities all nice and pretty.  If only we could plop such a project without it becoming abandoned as residential ploppables are likely to do as a result of broken employment, or maybe that brokenness of a R$ residential ploppable can be part of the realism as well!

     

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    Barry Bull    1
  • Original Poster
  • 11 minutes ago, Odainsaker said:

    Amusingly, this is actually an ironic simulation argument for a strategy of "the projects"...a large development of R$ public housing high-rises where we can conveniently concentrate all the R$ sims so as to leave the rest of our simcities all nice and pretty.  If only we could plop such a project without it becoming abandoned as residential ploppables are likely to do as a result of broken employment, or maybe that brokenness of a R$ residential ploppable can be part of the realism as well!

     

    Well, such projects work relatively well in Asian metropolis like Hong Kong and Singapore when combined with public-funded medical care and social welfare.

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    4 hours ago, rsc204 said:

    The thing is, R$ sims will tolerate pretty much anything and still live in such areas. By comparison, R$$ and $$$ sims get much more picky about where they will live. Of course you don't want to overdo it, because such effects can spread to other areas.

    To me it seems the whole game is designed with this philosophy - life's not only getting bigger but prettier, hungrier, cleaner, richer and ... decadent? Like farms become obsolete at a certain point all R$ sims become obsolete only well educated people find jobs, the R$ work will be done by robots. Something like this.

    Except of the military base - to my knowledge - there is no lot that gives caps relief and doesn't promote higher wealth sims/jobs at the same time. There are no CO$ jobs, the low wealth industry does more pollution. Most of the high rise skyscrapers are CO$$$. So growth and wealth are linked closely to each other. Every thing that grows goes for higher wealth. In RL it's different at this point - on a planet where resources are limited if you create high wealth in some parts, you create misery in another part - what you add there, you have to take away there. This effect - that wealth can do harm on a global level - you don't have in SC4. Wealth is solely positive.

    On the other hand you have something similar - R$$$ need more space, the occupancy on R$ is much more dense than on R$$$ - which means R$$$ needs more ressources: water, energy etc. But as resources are infinte - there's always and everywhere ground water f.e. this doesn't have the same negative effect as in RL except that it's harder to grow in amount of population. What I always missed in SC4 was a wellfare system - instead of unemployed only dissapearing they should have caused costs and you need to care for them otherwise you get problems with crime.

    I think in 2003 philosophy was different. The believe was all the world has to become R$$$. Today we think we have to meet somewhere in between. The R$$$ have to become R$$ to make R$ become also R$$. We have to share prosperity. The game instead for prosperity it seems it's to simply wipe out the poor.

    So one has to regard this a 'natural behaviour' of sims, they all want to be R$$$. No one wants to be R$. They are convinced if they are all R$$$ they are more lucky. They believe working on a farm is a boring thing to do. They want to be computer programmers instead.

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