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Hamish

Simtropolis Challenges Season 3 - General Discussion

122 posts in this topic

MDs and CJs are arguably a non-competitive enterprise, and how successful your MD is at SC4D has zero correlation with the Picture Competition there, and for good reason.

The amount of responses guides the rankings anyways (aside from the Hall of Famers), not the quality or the impressiveness of the images (though obviously these help).
I'm simply saying that it's not necessarily in the best interests of the competition to outright rank players or posters (if you will) based on their success in the competition. Huston makes incredible scenes, and I think all of one has made it into the SC4D HoF; a lot of it has to do with what players and voters value at the time, and not only could rank be discouraging to new players, I'm also arguing that it's a poor measure of skill, when the skill level of players varies so wildly, and the line between amateur and "professional" player is blurry at best, esp. when you consider that a number of very good SC4 images have been produced by people that rarely play the actual game (Lot Editor cities come to mind).
 

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On 6/9/2016 at 3:25 PM, michae95l said:

I don't think hiding images until voting would benefit. Pre-seeing the images allow you to make up your mind before hand, decide how you're going to vote, and even critique the images to a finer detail. 

Alrighty then. I'm going to go with your advice since you are more familiar with how it all works. ;)

I have my entry ready now. :D

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Any chance we could see the image limit raised from 2MB to 3MB? Seems to be a bit tight for anyone wishing to enter a larger Mosaic. I know this was being talked about, it would be great if we could get the limit raised soon :)

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14 hours ago, korver said:

Any chance we could see the image limit raised from 2MB to 3MB? Seems to be a bit tight for anyone wishing to enter a larger Mosaic. I know this was being talked about, it would be great if we could get the limit raised soon :)

Yeah, that's the plan.

Just awaiting the all clear from @Dirktator , bandwidth and storage being the main considerations.

I wouldn't have thought this is too much of a concern, so hopefully the raise can be implemented shortly. Even though it's just another MB, this does give a lot more flexibility for larger resolutions.

If so, it'd happen for a new challenge, meaning everyone is then on a level playing field.

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In the challenges where an image is the presentation, the criteria below are given.  I've highlighted the one I think needs to be reconsidered or re-worded:

Urban Features (S3-02-E)  Suggested Voting Criteria

  • How well does the image present the urban feature?
  • The extent that the various man-made structures are cohesive.
  • Does it appear realistic?
  • The amount of attention to detail.
  • How much effort you think has gone into creating it.
  • Is the image visually interesting / appealing?

Between SC4, SC (2013), City Skylines, Cities XXL/XL.  there are considerable difference in the appearance of the graphics in terms of 'realism'.   SC4 is the least photorealistic, no matter how creative we are, images from SC4 will always appear radically less photorealistic than especially Skylines and Cities XXL which render HD 3-point perspective images with added perspective effects.   Some voters may assume that 'realistic' means 'photorealistic'  SC4 also is always an isometric image while in the other games one has access to a variety of angles of view in camera mode.

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This brings up my own personal belief that the contests should be game specific such that sc4 competes with sc4 and CSL with CSL and so forth. But, that's just how I see it. ;)

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@RandyE

Thanks for the input. :)

I absolutely agree, there are considerable differences between the various games. It is hard to compare them like for like, especially with graphics. It's true the challenges aren't a competition between games, rather each image should be judged in its own context, and how well it meets the brief.

The voting criteria will change slightly between challenges. For example, the vanilla challenge was more focused on being creative, and making use of the limited toolset available. Urban Features is more about recreating something from real life, which was the idea behind the 'realistic' guideline.

But yes, realism is in the eye of the beholder, and it again depends on how someone defines realistic.

Maybe it would be more neutral to say:

How well does the feature blend in with its surroundings?

 

25 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

This brings up my own personal belief that the contests should be game specific such that sc4 competes with sc4 and CSL with CSL and so forth. But, that's just how I see it. ;)

Last year we did trial a couple of dedicated CSL challenges, although they didn't seem a big hit.

If there's enough demand, they could certainly be re-introduced if we run a Season 4.
 

(I've moved these posts to the General Discussion thread, as the Ideas Bank is more for suggesting challenge themes).

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30 minutes ago, Cyclone Boom said:

The voting criteria will change slightly between challenges. For example, the vanilla challenge was more focused on being creative, and making use of the limited toolset available. Urban Features is more about recreating something from real life, which was the idea behind the 'realistic' guideline.

 

I get the idea now of what was mean't by 'realistic'.   Thanks for clarifying.  I got the idea that it could be something imaginary, but more so at least 'plausible' in real life.  In my entry I was extrapolating a bit into the possible future and keeping 'in-theme' with SimCity.   lol.  I suppose I'm just SimCityCentric.  :)       The other games don't involve the user in a humorous theme like SC4 with cartoon characters like Maxis Man and Dr. Vu.

A direct challenge between the different simulators might be interesting to a few hard-core SC4 artists and also get more activity from players using CSL and CXL, but I'll post that idea in the idea forum so you don't have to keep moving this discussion back and forth.  

     

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Multiple submissions and larger resolutions

Just to clarify something for all competitors...

Unless stated otherwise, the one image rule applies to all parts of the entry, including the comments section. It's really to provide a level playing field, and give equal opportunity for everyone involved.

However, should you wish, we do allow a higher resolution of the same image to be posted in the description or the comments section. This was done last season a few times with mosaics. As it may otherwise appear blurred / distorted, the actual submission can be a snapshot area of the large image. For example with a golf course, you could crop it down to a few holes, then have the large image showing the whole course. The zoomed in version would still be contained within it.

The only exception is with Monthly challenges, which will allow up to 3 submissions per author, with the highest rated being used for the final rankings.

By the way, the image limit raise is still on the cards, I'm just awaiting the all clear on this.

Thanks! :)

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I'm happy to see a new season of challenges is in full gear!  RL is keeping me away from almost all things 'computer' related at the moment, but seeing some of these challenges and the great submissions makes me want to fire up the old bird and take her for a spin.  I've noticed some great SC4 content still popping up on the STEX... it's like that Godfather quote...

:D

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Nice work everyone! The ratings were really tight near the top with only 0.41 points separating 3rd place from 12th (re the Urban Features challenge). The only thing I'm a bit surprised by is the number of rep points awarded, it's a little more than I expected. I know bonuses are given based on the total number of entries and for a higher average rating and that's a cool idea. I also I think that the distribution of points between 1st, 2nd & 3rd is just fine too. But imo the initial Reputation Prize Fund is a little high, especially for a 2 week challenge and perhaps should be reduced. Keep in mind I'm say this as one of the winners and I would not have an issue with that being retro actively applied either.

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I must say, I've kept quiet on this issue until now, but the amount of rep given does bother me.

What we are in effect saying as a community, is that someone who uploads a pretty picture, or makes a one-off piece of content for a competition is somehow many times more valuable than others.

I've many mods on the exchanges, none have anything like 100 likes. Some of them took 100's of hours of work too. Day in and day out I try to help people with problems, rarely do you see such posts given a lot of likes either. It just seems too massive a reward in the grand scheme of things.

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31 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

I must say, I've kept quiet on this issue until now, but the amount of rep given does bother me.

What we are in effect saying as a community, is that someone who uploads a pretty picture, or makes a one-off piece of content for a competition is somehow many times more valuable than others.

I've many mods on the exchanges, none have anything like 100 likes. Some of them took 100's of hours of work too. Day in and day out I try to help people with problems, rarely do you see such posts given a lot of likes either. It just seems too massive a reward in the grand scheme of things.

 
 
9 hours ago, takemethere said:

Nice work everyone! The ratings were really tight near the top with only 0.41 points separating 3rd place from 12th. The only thing I'm a bit surprised by is the number of rep points awarded, it's a little more than I expected. I know bonuses are given based on the total number of entries and for a higher average rating and that's a cool idea. I also I think that the distribution of points between 1st, 2nd & 3rd is just fine too. But imo the initial Reputation Prize Fund is a little high, especially for a 2 week challenge and perhaps should be reduced a little(25-33%). Keep in mind I'm say this as one of the winners and I would not have an issue with that being retro actively applied either.

 
 
 
 

Totally agree with you two, 460 rep points in far too much for one picture. I'm not aware of any file, CJ entry or forum post with more than 50-ish likes.

 @simmaster07, who solved the biggest flaw in SC4 only got 40 likes for his DLL fix upload, if anything should get 460 likes, it should be something like that, something utterly revolutionary.

There are is some amazing content on this site, and most gets less than 20 likes. There are some stunning CJ entries with 20-30 high-quality pictures, with a wealth of inspirational in-game detail, and they barely get the recognition they deserve.

These are the things that should be getting the high rewards, not one picture in a competition. I understand the need for a reward, but at this level, it is too high.

40 minutes ago, korver said:

I think the rep prize fund is perfect where it is - serves as excellent motivation to any potential challengers to take part in the competitions. A number of last season's competitions had a rather weak turnout, so that's definitely a major concern. Besides, if you manage to place on the podium of a two week competition with 20+ competitors, you should be rewarded greatly.

 
 
 
 

Rewarded greatly, yes, but rewarded to a level, which is equal to 22 CJ entries of 20 like each, that's too much.

Assuming you get 16 likes per CJ entry/forum post or file upload, (which is on the high end), then you would need to upload 27.5 of these to get the same rep points. One per fortnight for a whole year, to make up for one competition win. I think anyone would agree that way more time is put into 28 entries/post/files than 1 picture, however good it is.

Fo instance, there are 19 challenges left this season (I think at least, based on my counting, if not its more), and to surpass the highest rep count on the site, you would only need to win 16 of them, assuming they all have the same number of competitors, so the same rep points are awarded.

 @A Nonny Moose has been a member for 12 1/2 years and has given his life and soul, along with his continuing expertise to the site. Should you be able to surpass him before Christmas just with competition wins, I don't think so.

30-50 points per win, I think that's better. An incentive. More than anyone will ever probably get from a single post, but not out of this world.

 

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With the greatest respect to those who entered these competitions...

I go so far as to say 100 points for a win is still too much. Realistically, that could take months of hard work in the forums. Are we really saying we value these images more than those who give their heart and soul to the community?

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Just now, rsc204 said:

I go so far as to say 100 points for a win is still too much. Realistically, that could take months of hard work in the forums. Are we really saying we value these images more than those who give their heart and soul to the community?

 

I even agree there, let me edit my post.

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May could we see it also from the other side: the main way to show appreciation for a downloadable content is not to click on a hard-to-find, little button, but to download the content itself. Maybe the reputation system could be tweaked to derive likes frrom downloads or positive reviews of STEX files, or even easier, the like button could be put along the download one, on a similar size, to canalize reactions that way.

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Many people, myself included, use the 'like' button mostly to acknowledge that we've read and understood a comment or reply or viewed content.  I just 'liked' a few comments above mostly to indicate that I'm following the discussion.

Maybe the reputation names and points could be more specific to what an individual mostly contributes, for example, if someone contributes mostly technical expertise or mostly artwork then their 'reputation' indicates such by name and rank.

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One issue is that you can not control what people decide to like or comment upon. So there is no way of assigning reputation points to such an activity.

However, since you can assign them for the purposes of these competitions, it seems to me that you need to fairly take into account the rep gained by these other activities when setting such rewards. Because there is a huge gulf between the two. My rep is 1644, gained through a lot of hard work. If you are saying that winning 4 competitions is worth a similar amount of rep, then I honestly feel that system is unfair.

Of course no system is ever perfect, but to my mind, the system in place for competitions is very unbalanced. I don't do anything I do for rep points. But, you can't help looking sometimes and feeling more than a little under appreciated.

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But if we're talking about 30-50 points for 1st, what about the other 2 places (or 4 places in the longer challenges)? Before I continue, I'm not defending the current score amounts, but I am supporting keeping the amounts at a level that is conducive to competition.

While I agree the current amount seems high, making it too low defeats the idea of the competition having an award. While it's certainly fun simply to enter something you've made into a competition, I personally wouldn't see any solid reason to do so if the awards were barely greater than what you might hope to achieve by posting your image in a regular thread (if the community thinks it's really good) - really, it can be very easy to get a lot of points off of a good image if that's what you really want. You could show a few interesting WIP pictures spread of a period of time... and then post your final image. BATs can be similar - if you show WIP pictures of something the community is interested in, you will get lots of points off of one project. I've had several posts in my thread that have honestly surprised me with how many points they may get, knowing that the things displayed may have been very easy to make (or even been made out of previous works I did) and took very little time. If you look at some of korver's out-of-this-world CJ posts, he has upwards of 40 or 50 points on more than one of them. Getting lots of points, while certainly not easy in the least, can be done quickly if one is trying to. Back when I was most active and posted pictures of things I was working on building in the game, I regularly appeared on that little "leaderboard" of people who were getting lots of reputation over a period of time. I could get anywhere from 50-100+ in a week-long period at that time. People that are more active than me now are still capable of the same thing - I've seen people getting 80-90 points in a week very recently from a combination of good comments, helpful posts, and posting their works in the "Show Us Your...." threads.

While one could get a ridiculous amount of points by winning all or most of the remaining competitions, I really don't see that as likely. The competition is generally very stiff and most of the participants have close scores. In the vanilla challenge I had pulled ahead into the lead and then dropped to second place in the final hours of voting - the two images were dealing with scores that were a few hundredths apart. In addition, we have content challenges where people who might be good at making nice scenes in-game have no idea how to make custom content and won't stand a chance against the people who do so on a regular basis. Another factor to keep in mind is how close together many of the competitions are and how short individual ones may be. If you spend a lot of time on each image you make, it's quite likely you won't be able to enter everything. I was gong to enter this particular competition but wasn't even near finished once voting started so I dropped the idea. I was late submitting my image for the Tourist Attractions one. I expect to miss out on more than a few of these events - I am busy with things outside of the game.

So, long story short, I do agree that it's too high as it stands and should be reduced a good bit to a more reasonable figure, but lowering it so drastically would likely lead to very low-turnout competitions like we had before. If there's no glaring reason to enter, less people will put forth the extra effort to make a competitive image to submit. As far as the reputation itself is concerned, I really don't like how one could top my reputation that I've been building for years with a few competitions, but the flipside of that is that I myself participate in them.

Maybe this sounds bad, but if a user cares a lot about their reputation score and where they stand in comparison to others, then shouldn't they be trying to enter the competitions as their schedule permits? (general statement - that was not directed at anybody)

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To be simple ... 

Many of the old great technical or users colaborators  who really allowed all the beautiful images become reality now providing content modifications to the original game did was not bothered with this kind of recognition.

More than getting any score or number of posts did for the sake of discussion on the issues and information sharing that stimulated creativity to new discoveries and creating content ..

Evident that today in social networking a large proportion of users perhaps purposely seek the "likes"  as cuddle to own ego for the time spent on content posted but particularly do not  see any relevance for this detail as a point to bother all aficionados that here provide a huge service to keep alive and running games 

Measure or compare the importance of supporting games and users through something as subjective as personal taste for this or that post certainly not reveal the truth about the colaborators  in most cases.

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Thanks everyone for the feedback on the reputation.

Currently the system is the same used as last year, which gives multipliers for the challenge type, the number of entries, and the overall average rating. The only difference is the addition of the content challenges, that set the highest rep reward.

These challenges aren't meant to be focussed on gaining reputation. Instead they're more about having fun, being creative, and using these city-building games in a competitive environment. Really, the idea behind the 'high' amounts was to give more incentive for taking part. Therefore to encourage participation, and make each event more meaningful. At the moment, this is the only actual method of recognition, so it was really to make them more meaningful. Originally award badges could be shown on your profiles, but the site upgrade last year broke this, with it no longer compatible. If all goes according to plan, we do hope to implement an even better awards system later this year, which can again be used for challenge winners.

In any given challenge, it isn't easy to win or reach the podium. To gain reputation in Urban Features, there was only a 13.6% chance, and that's only from the statistical odds. This makes consistently reaching the prize ranks difficult, let alone reaching 1st place.

Since it wasn't brought up in the feedback topic, we assumed people were OK with the set prize amounts. However, we're always open to feedback, and appreciate any concerns shared. We want all challenges to be fun, fair, and work how you'd like them to. I'm so glad this has been brought up early on. It can now be promptly addressed and results recalculated, as it would otherwise create all sorts of chaos with the leaderboards, where basically everything would be invalid.

Based on this, the amounts will be reduced, making them more proportional to other site areas. This can be done for the two previous challenges, and all ones in future. It's as easy change as swapping a few numbers over. I completely agree there needs to be a balance here. Not too much to make other site areas less important -- this is not the idea behind these rep prizes. The contributions in the forums, STEX and CJs are always valued, and we'd love to find a way to give more back to those people. However, the rep prizes should still be significant enough as a reward, to encourage people to share their creations and enter them.

In Urban Features, it was really a perfect storm. There were 22 entries (tied 2nd amount since the ranking system), it was also an Extended event, and the average rating was quite high (more bonus). Compare this to the Vanilla challenge, and the figures are much less (190, 114, 76, even though this may still be too much).

I'll get back with a few proposals, and we can take it from there. :)

Maybe we can even hold a poll, as we'd like the best possible outcome for everyone.

Thanks again.

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OK, I've put together 4 possible rep options, using assorted data from last season.

For the purpose of this, each challenge type has a different total of entries. This has been estimated from data gathered so far, to give an indication of likely scenarios (although it will vary for each challenge). For example, an Extended (2 week) challenge is expected to receive more entries than a Weekly. And a Custom Content (30 day) challenge would probably get the least entries, as not everyone is familiar with the process. Monthly would likely be the most, as these are very open themes, with the longest submission period.

Also in each set of sample data, only the places which gain reputation are shown for clarity.

Below are the multipliers used to calculate the Prize Fund for each challenge. It's these values which control the amount of rep awarded, so these are what need considering:
 

Control - Rep Multipliers  (For comparison, these are the values currently used)

 Weekly   =  20

 Extended   =  30

 Monthly   =  40

 Custom Content   =  50


Open spoiler to view the sample data:

Spoiler

 

Sample Data -  Weekly 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.27   |   165  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.24   |   99  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 4.06   |   66  Rep


(10 Total Entries)

 

Sample Data -  Extended 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.75   |   325  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.36   |   195  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 4.32   |   130  Rep


(15 Total Entries)

 

Sample Data -  Monthly 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.52   |   412  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.33   |   247  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 3.95   |   165  Rep

 4th     |   Rating: 3.71   |   124  Rep

 5th     |   Rating: 3.69   |   82  Rep


(20 Total Entries)

 

Sample Data -  Custom Content 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.80   |   212  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.63   |   127  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 4.35   |   85  Rep

 4th     |   Rating: 4.05   |   64  Rep

 5th     |   Rating: 4.02   |   42  Rep


(8 Total Entries)

 

 


 

Option 1 - Rep Multipliers

 Weekly   =  2

 Extended   =  4

 Monthly   =  8

 Custom Content   =  16


Open spoiler to view the sample data:

Spoiler

 

Sample Data -  Weekly 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.27   |   55  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.24   |   33  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 4.06   |   22  Rep


(10 Total Entries)

 

Sample Data -  Extended 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.75   |   100  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.36   |   60  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 4.32   |   40  Rep


(15 Total Entries)

 

Sample Data -  Monthly 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.52   |   128  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.33   |   77  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 3.95   |   51  Rep

 4th     |   Rating: 3.71   |   38  Rep

 5th     |   Rating: 3.69   |   26  Rep


(20 Total Entries)

 

Sample Data -  Custom Content 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.80   |   91  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.63   |   55  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 4.35   |   36  Rep

 4th     |   Rating: 4.05   |   27  Rep

 5th     |   Rating: 4.02   |   18  Rep


(8 Total Entries)

 

 


 

Option 2 - Rep Multipliers

 Weekly   =  3

 Extended   =  6

 Monthly   =  12

 Custom Content   =  24


Open spoiler to view the sample data:

Spoiler

 

Sample Data -  Weekly 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.27   |   60  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.24   |   36  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 4.06   |   24  Rep


(10 Total Entries)

 

Sample Data -  Extended 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.75   |   115  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.36   |   69  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 4.32   |   46  Rep


(15 Total Entries)

 

Sample Data -  Monthly 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.52   |   160  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.33   |   96  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 3.95   |   64  Rep

 4th     |   Rating: 3.71   |   48  Rep

 5th     |   Rating: 3.69   |   32  Rep


(20 Total Entries)

 

Sample Data -  Custom Content 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.80   |   117  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.63   |   70  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 4.35   |   47  Rep

 4th     |   Rating: 4.05   |   35  Rep

 5th     |   Rating: 4.02   |   23  Rep


(8 Total Entries)

 

 


 

Option 3 - Rep Multipliers

 Weekly   =  4

 Extended   =  8

 Monthly   =  16

 Custom Content   =  32


Open spoiler to view the sample data:

Spoiler

 

Sample Data -  Weekly 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.27   |   65  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.24   |   39  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 4.06   |   26  Rep


(10 Total Entries)

 

Sample Data -  Extended 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.75   |   130  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.36   |   78  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 4.32   |   52  Rep


(15 Total Entries)

 

Sample Data -  Monthly 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.52   |   192  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.33   |   115  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 3.95   |   77  Rep

 4th     |   Rating: 3.71   |   58  Rep

 5th     |   Rating: 3.69   |   38  Rep


(20 Total Entries)

 

Sample Data -  Custom Content 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.80   |   142  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.63   |   85  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 4.35   |   57  Rep

 4th     |   Rating: 4.05   |   43  Rep

 5th     |   Rating: 4.02   |   28  Rep


(8 Total Entries)

 

 


 

Option 4 - Rep Multipliers

 Weekly   =  5

 Extended   =  10

 Monthly   =  20

 Custom Content   =  40


Open spoiler to view the sample data:

Spoiler

 

Sample Data -  Weekly 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.27   |   70  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.24   |   42  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 4.06   |   28  Rep


(10 Total Entries)

 

Sample Data -  Extended 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.75   |   145  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.36   |   87  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 4.32   |   58  Rep


(15 Total Entries)

 

Sample Data -  Monthly 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.52   |   224  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.33   |   134  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 3.95   |   90  Rep

 4th     |   Rating: 3.71   |   67  Rep

 5th     |   Rating: 3.69   |   45  Rep


(20 Total Entries)

 

Sample Data -  Custom Content 

 1st     |   Rating: 4.80   |   168  Rep

 2nd     |   Rating: 4.63   |   101  Rep

 3rd     |   Rating: 4.35   |   67  Rep

 4th     |   Rating: 4.05   |   50  Rep

 5th     |   Rating: 4.02   |   34  Rep


(8 Total Entries)

 

 


 

A few things to note:

  • Rep distribution for Weekly and Extended challenges (top 3):
    50%, 30%, 20%
     
  • Rep distribution for Monthly and CC challenges (top 5):
    40%, 24%, 16%, 12%, 8%
     
  • The bonus rep calculation (entries and average rating) has been modified, to reduce the amount given.
     
  • For comparison, the sample data is the same for each challenge type.
     
  • Votes are irrelevant, and only influence the actual ranking. That's why they're not shown.
     
  • The rep amounts shown above would obviously change depending on the # of entries, and the voting patterns. E.g. More entries = more rep, and vice versa.
     
  • For Extended challenges, the rep multiplier is double that of Weekly. This is because they are twice as long.
     
  • The same applies to Monthly challenges, which are 4x the length of Weekly.
     
  • The idea of having a higher multiplier for CC challenges is to reward content, and since they are more demanding. Also as they will almost certainly receive less entries, it makes the rep more proportional to other challenge types.
     
  • On the "Popular Contributors" sidebar on the forum index, the current max rep points (for all site areas) are:
    Per Week = 80  Rep
    Per Month = 251  Rep

    By this logic, 2 weeks (Extended challenge) = ~143  Rep

 

Hope all this makes sense!

Let us know what you think, and I'll then open a 'referendum' poll to decide the future of reputation. ;)

 

korver, _Michael, rsc204 and 1 other like this

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Whilst I can say I think the new proposal seems a lot better to me, I do have one concern. Are you saying that you would adjust those prizes already awarded? Whatever my views on these prizes are, I don't think it's ever really OK to give someone a prize then take it back or change it in some way.

I agree with the comments here that there should be a reward for winning, it's clear that this time round participation is much higher that previous times.

But perhaps the real problem is that Rep is a one size fit's all solution. When you think about what reputation means, it doesn't really fit with competitions and prizes. I can see how without another way to provide an award though, this is the only way to do it right now. But ideally, it would probably be better if we weren't comparing apples and oranges.

Cyclone Boom likes this

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In my view, Option 2 represents the best option in terms of example points. It looks like a fair reward, without being excessive.

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4 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Whilst I can say I think the new proposal seems a lot better to me, I do have one concern. Are you saying that you would adjust those prizes already awarded? Whatever my views on these prizes are, I don't think it's ever really OK to give someone a prize then take it back or change it in some way.

Due to how the points and leaderboards work, the prizes must be recalculated using the new multipliers. The thing is, reputation is linked directly to the amount of points given for each placing. Therefore to keep everything proportional, it would be required at least for the recorded results and leaderboards.

Whether that means rep should be taken away, I suppose it doesn't really matter in terms of the physical results. The prizes could be kept, with the results & leaderboards still showing the reduced amount.

To decide, along with the 4 options, I'll add this as a simple Yes/No question in the poll later today:

"Should reputation prizes be reallocated for existing challenges this season?"

Takingyouthere likes this

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19 hours ago, _Michael said:

In my view, Option 2 represents the best option in terms of example points. It looks like a fair reward, without being excessive.

At first I thought option 2 was too low but then I took a look at the sample data examples. The actual prize result for the first place finish in the extend challenge was 135 points higher > 460 to 325. One has to keep in mind that the bonus rep given for more entries and a higher overall score can drive up the numbers. With that in mind one of the lower options either 1 or 2 seems best as in those cases the winning entry(please correct me if I'm calculating it wrong @Cyclone Boom) for the last challenge would of received either 250 or 265  edit* the correct numbers are 134 or 156. If its not too much work to do, it might be a good idea to use the results from the extended challenge in the options instead so we can get a better idea of the differences.

Also I think it would be a good idea to feature the referendum on the front page to get as many people to vote on it since there's only a fairly limited time before the voting closes.

Cyclone Boom likes this

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@takemethere

Thanks for the suggestion, I've posted them as a reply here:

Urban Features did have a very high entry count, so that's why I think the sample data (with 15 entries) allows a clearer comparison between the 3 challenge types.

As briefly mentioned in the notes, one thing different with all 4 options is the reduced bonus amount. This means the entry count now has slightly less influence on how the rep can fluctuate. This is about a 15% reduction for Urban Features -- not hugely significant, but enough to make a difference.

Hope this clarifies. :)

 

1 hour ago, takemethere said:

Also I think it would be a good idea to feature the referendum on the front page to get as many people to vote on it since there's only a fairly limited time before the voting closes.

Good idea, I'll get onto posting on the homepage, and will add a few other notices elsewhere.

Takingyouthere likes this

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The bottom line IMO, is it really doesn't matter how you tweak the awards since the vote for each image is based on the individual voter''s own personal preferences. That would prolly work ok if there were thousands of peeps voting, but when it's a very small handful you are appealing to what each person feels is something they wished they had created. Sure, you can suggest  that each entry is judged on how much effort or creativity went into its creation given the constraints of the challenge criteria, but that's irrelevant when the vast majority prefer one particular style over another.

My suggestion would be to have a pre-selected team of unbiased judges for the contests who are competently familiar with the challenge rather than polling a limited number of random peeps from the community at large. The entries should be anonymous when the judging occurs. And they should be presented in a random order to each judge so that the first entry isn't dismissed out of hand.

Ofc, I'm quite biased in my opinion so feel free to ignore my comments. ;)

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One problem I see with supposedly anonymous entries is that even if we have judges, they are still part of the community and people who frequent CJs and Show Us Your threads will be familiar with the styles people present. For example, if I were presented a selection of images from people who post regularly on the SC4 boards, I could very likely tell you who made several of them because many users have a very distinct style to their works (MilitantRadical, Tonraq, korver, SimCoug, and takemethere are few whose images I would bet on myself to be able to identify). I do occasionally lurk on the CS boards and there seems to be some distinct styles over there as well. The same carries over to custom content - there's so few of us making the stuff at this point that one could probably put names to anonymous entries pretty easily.

That aside, I think this referendum looks good. I like how option 4 brings the scores down to earth but keeps them at a level that is an attractive incentive to compete for.

Cyclone Boom and matias93 like this

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