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Fearlessmayor

Why aren't more developers building for CSL?

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7 minutes ago, Cool_Z said:

Oh... ah :kitty:

 

And the one whose growables are bigger than the lot size I suppose :kitty:

I must correct that... the lifecycle of a fart actually. (unless you post a random pic of an intersection).

Oh and if you dare post something that might be a tiny bit saying there's something that could be better with the game, you'll get answers like you're clubbing baby seals. :party:

I saw that one. How DARE you suggest some part of the game could be better. Infidel! Or whatever the C:S equivalent is.

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26 minutes ago, AJ3D said:

Was that the guy who was asking for money to update the assets?

Yeah, I think he was. And I think he backtracked because of the shizstorm he stirred up - let's just say he reaped what he sowed (see what I did there... :uhm:)

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8 minutes ago, Judazzz said:

Yeah, I think he was. And I think he backtracked because of the shizstorm he stirred up - let's just say he reaped what he sowed (see what I did there... :uhm:)

So he never updated the old ones ?

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3 minutes ago, Cool_Z said:

So he never updated the old ones ?

He did, but only after his "I'll update if you guys pay me!" scheme backfired big time. If I recall correctly, you created your Half Chase Manhattan just to show him you could do the same (but way better) at one third of the file size. Haven't heard of him since... ;) 

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Something Zed said earlier reminds me I still need to update my Dump hotel. I tiled the windows outside the UV boundaries for the LOD, which I didn't know at the time you can't do, because while it works for detail models, it doesn't work for LOD models. I tried to fix it months ago, but had a complication with the text on the facades and just sort of gave up at the time. Whenever I do update it, I'm tempted to change the name to Drumpf in light of recent memes. It'll satisfy people who don't like the DUMP name hovering over their city, but still make fun of He Who Must Not Be Named. But yeah, when I did try fixing it, it went a little like this...

lol_ft_1.jpg

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3 hours ago, Koesj said:

 

@Fearlessmayor, I definitely see where you're coming from. The billboards issue, missing art and/or pictures, either a general lack of quality or beginners' mistakes that could have easily been corrected if people had sought some pre-release feedback, etc. - they are an affront!

There are, however, three issues that I struggle with regarding your quite public call for more quality. The first one is lack of context, the second one is tone, which is a fruitless discussion, and the third is my own (and wholly my own) struggle to not take your comments too personal. 

I could not have said that better myself!

For @Fearlessmayor: We're talking personal taste here too. For example the first two buildings of your favorites would be far from my favorite list, so it's hard for us to recommend stuff to you without more detail of what you feel is missing. I also noticed that the first two issues you have with buildings (no pic and no ingame tumbnail) have more or less ben fixed by CO. When creating an asset now it will automaticly take those pictures for you if you don't do it yourself (the preview pics are still boring and sometimes crap angles, but they're there). I totally agree with the horrible overuse of billboards! Hopefully our awesome modders can help with that as I doubt CO will reduce the ammount.

 

As for the whole how do we raise quality and awareness I agree with what you guys have said. As someone who started out modelling very recently all the relevant info is spread out. I think part of the problem too is that many players don't know about the 24000 growable that's killing their game. I didn't look that criticly on the models until I started doing it myself. I really wish the steam workshop would be cleaned out more - or at the very least the horrible game killer assets could get warning tags on there. Many buildings don't have the stats listed - filesize can be a bit of a guide, but it's not enough. I agree this should be something CO deals with - they have the ability to inform all players through the game. If more players know which buildings are bad for the game, the ratings/subscription numbers would eventually work as a better guide to the good stuff.

As for the newer modellers (the ones that just don't know better to start with) feedback on what they're doing wrong (and right!) could help raise the quality. Getting them over here would also be great - there's alot of resources and help to find. Having somewhere official would also be nice, but if the info gets out there it doesn't matter too much (to me) where we are. As long as people looking can find us. ;) 

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6 hours ago, Fearlessmayor said:

 CSL is still wanting in the beauty SC4 had -

 

I seriously doubt any game not using prerendered assets can compete with SC4 in perceived quality, actually this is one of the reasons I don't like any of SC4 successors.

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1 minute ago, moSonče said:

I seriously doubt any game not using prerendered assets can compete with SC4 in perceived quality, actually this is one of the reasons I don't like any of SC4 successors.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat ????

Ok you're actually right. But it's just a matter of time.

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Just now, Cool_Z said:

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat ????

Ok you're actually right. But it's just a matter of time.

Couldn't agree more, it is a matter of decades :)

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1 minute ago, moSonče said:

Couldn't agree more, it is a matter of decades :)

Let's be honest... If you play CSL with the isometric camera mod, and the lod toggler mod (to get a similar pov than what you get with SC4), you can get close. Thing is that yu can move the camera freely and zoom closer, that's when things get less pretty. But if you actually don't get closer than what you could do with SC4 this is now looking pretty good.

And some angles, and the weather, and the curved roads, and moving water...

:ooh:

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54 minutes ago, moSonče said:

I seriously doubt any game not using prerendered assets can compete with SC4 in perceived quality, actually this is one of the reasons I don't like any of SC4 successors.

Yeah, that's an advantage.....but at very close zoom, things get pixelated. It's just pros and cons. Though BoldyBuilding's Empire State is HUGE, it comes very close. There are some great assets made i think that brings CSL closer to what we enjoy in SC4. Just look at the Red Rock CJ and the farm in page 9 of "Show Us Your Detail Shots" by Gatakos.

Quality assets can make CSL more beautiful right now if the effort is put forth. It's not gonna just happen out the box. It sure doesn't for SC4 either.

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10 minutes ago, moSonče said:

Couldn't agree more, it is a matter of decades :)

Couldn't disagree more. C:S can top SC4 easily in the gfx department, it's just a matter of picking the right assets and camera angles. If we keep making quality here we'll get a very long way.

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Yeah, if the effort is put in and a bit more optimization is done, as well as maybe either improvements to the engine or a different engine, graphics like SC4 or better could probably be achieved now. But no matter, in another 5-10 years, that won't be an issue. It'll be interesting to see what the future of city-builders after C:S holds.

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Just now, Darf said:

Couldn't disagree more. C:S can top SC4 easily in the gfx department, it's just a matter of picking the right assets and camera angles. If we keep making quality here we'll get a very long way.

Well , I just checked LOD Toggler screenshots and I still don't think any 3D game can practically compete with prerendered assets, problem isn't in creating assets (people created very same assets with extremely high polygon numbers for Simcity 4) , problem is about having average hardware powerful enough and extra time needed to make assets low-poly.

You may say this is what LOD is for, but I rather prefer prerendered assets instead of " it's that good for a moment/angle/assets " one. Although I know that no one will revert back to an engine of like Simcity 4 (which has own drawbacks as stated above), I just say to keep expectations a bit low for now.

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2 minutes ago, moSonče said:

Well , I just checked LOD Toggler screenshots and I still don't think any 3D game can practically compete with prerendered assets, problem isn't in creating assets (people created very same assets with extremely high polygon numbers for Simcity 4) , problem is about having average hardware powerful enough and extra time needed to make assets low-poly.

You may say this is what LOD is for, but I rather prefer prerendered assets instead of " it's that good for a moment/angle/assets " one. Although I know that no one will revert back to an engine of like Simcity 4 (which has own drawbacks as stated above), I just say to keep expectations a bit low for now.

You practically have the same thing with SC4, prerendered assets don't help there. If you look at C:S at the same camera angle it looks pretty much like sc4:

2016-02-14_00007.thumb.jpg.a809b60998af0

Close up shots are already a big nono in Sc4 due to pixelation and the fact you can only can customize a per square basis. Day/night and weather have a lot more impact on detailshots as SC4:

56f452b64fc98_HiresScreenshot14.thumb.jp

 

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46 minutes ago, Darf said:

You practically have the same thing with SC4, prerendered assets don't help there. If you look at C:S at the same camera angle it looks pretty much like sc4:

 

Close up shots are already a big nono in Sc4 due to pixelation and the fact you can only can customize a per square basis. Day/night and weather have a lot more impact on detailshots as SC4:

 

Omitted photos in order not to turn into wall of post and I don't want to turn this into " C:S vs SC4, which has better graphics? " contest either as there is more than a decade between two games and it's obvious that C:S offers more option.

I am just saying that due to its 3D nature, no modern game can have that much detailed assets as prerendered one, first screenshot of yours also justifies this : all buildings are made lowest poly possible and then finished with textures. I don't even mention "trees" . I don't blame game either, it's inevitable if game will be played by players aka not a technology demo.

So if I need to repeat again, just it is not realistic to expect SC4 asset details therefore perceived quality from a 3D game in short term.

Other than that, I don't argue about SC4 pixelation, it is major drawback of such engines, if there was another zoom level assets, they'd also be pixel perfect.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Commander_RealWar said:

Hi. For a while I have been wanting to make assets for Cities:Skylines, but I've had trouble building up the courage to learn how to model/texture, etc. Is there a type of building you guys would recommend for a beginner?

I'd start with something simple without too much detail. The important thing to start with is getting a feeling of how modelling works. There are guides/tutorials out there guiding you through your first simple object. If you have an idea for something simple (could be a small house, a shed, trashcan, a sign or logo - you get the idea ;) ), then grab some reference pictures if you have any and give it a try. I found it helpful to just mess around a bit without making anything - it gave me an idea of how working in 3d works.

And if you haven't already check out the stickied threads in here :)

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1 hour ago, Commander_RealWar said:

Hi. For a while I have been wanting to make assets for Cities:Skylines, but I've had trouble building up the courage to learn how to model/texture, etc. Is there a type of building you guys would recommend for a beginner?

Start with a small glass office building. Don't try and go make some big office tower or art deco asset. Those require a lot of work and you will quickly get you frustated.

38 minutes ago, moSonče said:

Omitted photos in order not to turn into wall of post and I don't want to turn this into " C:S vs SC4, which has better graphics? " contest as there is more than a decade between two games and it's obvious that C:S offers more option.

I am just saying that due to its 3D nature, no modern game can have that much detailed assets as prerendered one, first screenshot of yours also justifies this : all buildings are made lowest poly possible and then finished with textures. I don't even mention "trees" . I don't blame game either, it's inevitable if game will be played by players aka not a technology demo.

So if I need to repeat again, just it is not realistic to expect SC4 asset details therefore perceived quality from a 3D game in short term.

Other than that, I don't argue about SC4 pixelation, it is major drawback of such engines, if there was another zoom level assets, they'd also be pixel perfect.

 

 

Oh I know, I started off creating assets for SC4. Thing, is what can you create with all that detail? It still looks like a mess in the ingame engine, that's why city journals are as popular as they are. They make use of all that detail to create scenes to inspire and imagine. But in that regard, C:S has a lot more tools to make use of for fine detail shots. However, C:S still doesn't have even close to the amount of quality assets that SC4 does have and that's what counts.

I'm thinking of rendering some of my creations for Sc4 and see what they look like. The amount of polygons probably won't matter.

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As much everything discussed here.  I can say that I'm from some bad modders. I still do "heavy" buildings.  I love extruded windows on the main facade and detailed roof. Therefore, this increases the number of tris. My new x6-x18 floors apartments is made from 3300 to 6000 triangles. I can do nothing with myself. But I say to myself: I do it primarily for myself, I have a good PC, and I use only the most necessary and best of the best from the workshop.

The heaviest apartments I still will upload as unique with RICO mod support.

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I'd say there's a big difference between you Prosper and some of the other people that make heavy buildings. You're interesting in learning and improving your process. Plus your buildings aren't crazy big. We all have to start somewhere and listening to the feedback we get is how we get better. I'm just bothered about the people who upload buildings heavy on tris or texture (or both) and don't care. They won't accept any feedback, just praises. It's sad because often those buildings could be useful for all of us if they just put in the time to do it properly. Just like Zed said about the LOD. There's some arrogance and laziness, that I just don't think we see from the people who are active here. :)

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I've read the responses to my initial concerns, and being that I'm not a Modder or asset developer I've truthfully gotten a little lost in some of your technical comments .  I'm really not qualified to comment on the technical aspects of making an asset but  I think it's necessary that modders accept that there is a weakness in quality on the Steam workshop, and I especially appreciate those who acknowledge their weaknesses and try to improve.  without the asset developers and modders, I don't think CSL will come close to SC4 in terms of architecture, uniformity, and variety -- all things which will hurt playability.  I think we want to build functional cities, but also ones that are aesthetically pleasing.  this post has led me to some good designers, so thank ye all =) but of course, you're free to discuss this topic further, I just probably wont be commenting as I'll sound like a babbling baboon if I try to discuss the inner workings of modding.  God Speed!

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15 hours ago, Fearlessmayor said:

I've read the responses to my initial concerns, and being that I'm not a Modder or asset developer I've truthfully gotten a little lost in some of your technical comments .  I'm really not qualified to comment on the technical aspects of making an asset but  I think it's necessary that modders accept that there is a weakness in quality on the Steam workshop, and I especially appreciate those who acknowledge their weaknesses and try to improve.  without the asset developers and modders, I don't think CSL will come close to SC4 in terms of architecture, uniformity, and variety -- all things which will hurt playability.  I think we want to build functional cities, but also ones that are aesthetically pleasing.  this post has led me to some good designers, so thank ye all =) but of course, you're free to discuss this topic further, I just probably wont be commenting as I'll sound like a babbling baboon if I try to discuss the inner workings of modding.  God Speed!

Again, what assets are you using right now? Can I contrast and compare, and try to get some inspiration from the obvious holes in the 3rd party lineup? 

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On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 2:02 PM, Commander_RealWar said:

Hi. For a while I have been wanting to make assets for Cities:Skylines, but I've had trouble building up the courage to learn how to model/texture, etc. Is there a type of building you guys would recommend for a beginner?

I wouldn't even start with a building!

 

When I first learned blender, I made cubes and crates.  About 50 of them until I understood the basics.  Try to make simple cubes just with textures and UV maps to get the basics of how to navigate your 3D modeling program and move onto some more advanced buildings and models.  I only say that as you may get discouraged if you move to quickly and run into problems that the solutions are built off of things you may not have much experience with yet.  If you use Blender, lots of tutorials on the basics online -  I can link some if you want too.

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On ١٩‏/٦‏/١٤٣٧ هـ at 4:48 AM, Koesj said:

Again, what assets are you using right now? Can I contrast and compare, and try to get some inspiration from the obvious holes in the 3rd party lineup? 

Hi Avanya! I checked out some of your power plant assets and subbed.  Thanks! I totally agree the Steam workshop needs to be cleaned out more, but because it's user up/down voted, I guess maybe it would be better to do what some of us here suggested -- if we had a hub or wiki or reddit page where we shared good assets? For now, I guess I'll be posting to the Simtropolis forums askeing for asset and developer suggestions like I got on this thread. 

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On ١٩‏/٦‏/١٤٣٧ هـ at 4:48 AM, Koesj said:

Again, what assets are you using right now? Can I contrast and compare, and try to get some inspiration from the obvious holes in the 3rd party lineup? 

I'm using lots! As I have 700 or so.  I recently unsubbed from some. Specifically the ones that are poorly done or have no image in the UI.  Since CSL has no "name" description Its hard to know what I'm choosing to plop down into my city.  Here are some of my favorites: https://mnmmariam.wordpress.com/2016/03/24/building-story-worlds-2-assets-in-citiesskylines-workshop/

Also the train stations by Ragutaro, anything by Gula or Drosovila, who I know are high quality and a lot of work goes into their creations but with standards like theirs, it's hard to find anything less detailed acceptable.   And here are a few I added to my favorites that I use quite often:

my favorites assets1.png

my favorite sassets 1.png

more assets 3.png

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