Jump to content
GC_Vos

Network Extensions Project

755 posts in this topic Last Reply

Recommended Posts

15 hours ago, FilipposRoads said:

I usualy don't comment but I would like to say this is awesome, and that narrow 4 lane road with tram is perfect for my Toronto-inspired city. Could I however make a suggestion: could you put it so that the tram tracks are on the center rather than on the edges like here?

 This is also how Melbourne has them

14 hours ago, andreharv said:

 

@FilipposRoads: That was my first thought until I realized there would be no way to place a station because there is no space for a platform.  I don't want to restrict people.  HOWEVER, this is a situation where a road customizer would be nice because it would allow you to choose to place the road in the center but lose the ability to place stations on said road.  What do you think?

Have you looked into the code for where the stop forms? I imagine you've already altered where the cims wait for trams because of the way small tram roads work. Maybe you can position it so it's still in the side walk but have the tracks in the center.  And when cims board they just have to walk across the road a bit (which is normally what happens) and the traffic will probably slow (like when cims cross at crossing) and go right through them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While it may be possible, I am not going to do it that way.  At least not for this road.  Reason being that if cims have to cross the street then you are potentially jamming up multiple lanes for each tram stop whereas leaving the stop on the side potentially just jams up one lane.  TBH I will know for sure as I am making it (that's kinda how these things go)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed, we can't continue indefinitely to add road models: we see in discussions (here or on the workshop) the difficulty of finding consensus on the models, and 10 years of work will not cover all the possibilities... Ultimately, the only solution seems to me to be the modularity of the roads in-game (I'm not very confident in the road editor evoked by CO: as Avanya, I think it will only be accessible off-game).

I had put a lot of hope in the possibilities described by boformer for the undeveloped version of Network Skins (link).
He indicated the fully possibility of defining (model, location, spacing, orientation, quantity...), by segment: props, trees, pillars, textures, meshes... He doesn't have time to develop his mod, but I think he would willingly share his research with you (if not already done...). Will the Road Customization Tool integrate current or planned NS functionality to eventually replace it? One of the big advantages in the NS system is the ability to use different sources: it would increase the number of models available without adding to your workload...

For greater modularity, do you think it would be possible to individualize the meshes of the edges of roads (side-walks, barriers, public transport...)? It would create asymmetric roads, roads on the mountainside...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, andreharv said:

While it may be possible, I am not going to do it that way.  At least not for this road.  Reason being that if cims have to cross the street then you are potentially jamming up multiple lanes for each tram stop whereas leaving the stop on the side potentially just jams up one lane.  TBH I will know for sure as I am making it (that's kinda how these things go)

I just doubt that it really would jam the outer lane. And tbh if you think about if you have the outer lanes being filled with traffic and the inner lanes needing to turn across them then it's one big gridlock right there.  If the tracks are on the inner lanes then at least you'll have more traffic exiting freely from the outer. Maybe you could make it like your road with turning lane; outer lanes for all traffic.  Inner lanes for tram only (better tram network) and allow traffic for turning too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Dezelles said:

Indeed, we can't continue indefinitely to add road models: we see in discussions (here or on the workshop) the difficulty of finding consensus on the models, and 10 years of work will not cover all the possibilities... Ultimately, the only solution seems to me to be the modularity of the roads in-game (I'm not very confident in the road editor evoked by CO: as Avanya, I think it will only be accessible off-game).

I had put a lot of hope in the possibilities described by boformer for the undeveloped version of Network Skins (link).
He indicated the fully possibility of defining (model, location, spacing, orientation, quantity...), by segment: props, trees, pillars, textures, meshes... He doesn't have time to develop his mod, but I think he would willingly share his research with you (if not already done...). Will the Road Customization Tool integrate current or planned NS functionality to eventually replace it? One of the big advantages in the NS system is the ability to use different sources: it would increase the number of models available without adding to your workload...

For greater modularity, do you think it would be possible to individualize the meshes of the edges of roads (side-walks, barriers, public transport...)? It would create asymmetric roads, roads on the mountainside...

I think you mis understand how roads work in general. Boformer was basically making what CO is possibly looking into now.  The only way to get modded roads is to have completely packaged prefabs created.  (Ie: a custom mesh, texture maps etc). Boformer was going to make it so you could have custom meshes and textures so that if you loaded all your custom prefabs into the game his UI would make it easy to select which segment was which prefab.  Hopefully this is the similar idea that CO has.  

Dynamic changing of built in lanes and their configuration is impossible. Sure we have traffic president where you can edit what vehicles can run on what lanes but you can't change the built in configuration of lane segments. It's impossible without the extra work put into it (which is where andreharv comes into it - making custom meshes, textures, and editing the code to change the built in configuration of lanes)

However: maybe not going so far as making a new mod - @andreharv could provide a template script for a new mod with all the lines of code prefilled. CO recently in the last couple of updates allowed for mods to be reliant on other mods.  So if the script included a call for network extensions it wouldn't need to have all the code that NEXT has, it would only need code that tells NEXT to read it correctly.  And have parts we as asset creators can edit to change lane configurations, meshes and textures. 

It would be ideal if it were ready to compile and we could just release them in the workshop like boformer had separate mods that added themes to his theme manager

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Dezelles said:

Indeed, we can't continue indefinitely to add road models: we see in discussions (here or on the workshop) the difficulty of finding consensus on the models, and 10 years of work will not cover all the possibilities... Ultimately, the only solution seems to me to be the modularity of the roads in-game (I'm not very confident in the road editor evoked by CO: as Avanya, I think it will only be accessible off-game).

I agree with modularity being the solution but I don't necessarily think availability in-game is crucial. I think the focus should be on providing modularity in general, and then worrying about whether it's available in/off game.

7 hours ago, Dezelles said:

For greater modularity, do you think it would be possible to individualize the meshes of the edges of roads (side-walks, barriers, public transport...)? It would create asymmetric roads, roads on the mountainside...

This, however, is what I think could work --- provide a way for asset creators to (relatively) easily make their own roads in Asset Editor. This could include pre-made textures for roads, barriers, lanes, etc, as well as a UI or script that an asset creator can use in Asset Editor to make their own road type and release it as a mod that we can then subscribe to. It'd take some work off of the NEXT authors and the most popular mods can then be integrated into the official NEXT mod.

This is all easier said than done of course, I'm just throwing ideas out there, with my main point being the first step should be making it easier for asset creators and modders to create more road types, before worrying about the ability of a lay-person to create their own roads. One step at a time, basically. I think actually that that would even be good enough if it'd be easy enough for modders and asset creators, since they'd fill in most of the requests anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Bad Peanut said:

I just doubt that it really would jam the outer lane. And tbh if you think about if you have the outer lanes being filled with traffic and the inner lanes needing to turn across them then it's one big gridlock right there.  If the tracks are on the inner lanes then at least you'll have more traffic exiting freely from the outer. Maybe you could make it like your road with turning lane; outer lanes for all traffic.  Inner lanes for tram only (better tram network) and allow traffic for turning too.

I think one in-between solution may be to have dedicated tram lanes in the centre of the roads (with the ability for buses to use it too), separated with a small barrier as is the case with the "New Roads for NExt" dedicated bus-lane roads. This is the way its done in many European cities. Or, we can have just one median and the trams drop off passengers onto there (but that may not align with many tram doors in the workshop). In Toronto we always complain about how streetcars are slow for traffic and also themselves since if one breaks down, it slows down everybody, and if there's traffic then the streetcars are stuck behind cars. This could also provide a safe place for passengers to wait for their stop without worrying about some out-of-towner not knowing how our streetcar yield rules work lol.

Overall I think the best idea is to use best practice from cities around the world (mainly Europe since I believe they esp. Germany and France have the best layouts for them), and not make our own ideas about how tram lanes should be placed. I agree with @BadPeanut that having trams in centre lanes isn't going to lead to significant traffic issues, if done right.

tl;dr: Let's make tram roads according to European best practice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Loving the discussion.  Just a point of clarification.  I was only speaking for one tram road.  The first road I am retrofitting is the small avenue because it appears to be one of the most widely used NExt road used today.  Other roads will have different configurations.  It would actually be preferable to have tram in the median as this is the way it is currently implemented on larger multi-lane road.  For the examples I looked at in Toronto, Berlin, Helsinki, and a couple other places, it looked like for similar roads, the stations were still on island platforms in the middle of the road which is simply not possible with the 4 lane ave (4x 3m lanes + 2x 2m sidewalks = 16m) and I did not see a single example of a stop being on the side pavement and the actual tram stop in the middle of the road (please send examples of this).

Main takeaway is that the configuration pictured above is for this particular road (4 lane small avenue).  There will be many other roads that will have other/optional configurations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, andreharv said:

I did not see a single example of a stop being on the side pavement and the actual tram stop in the middle of the road (please send examples of this).

They are hard to see because there isn't much to see, I guess. Though I don't actually want to have this in my city (*:D), the closest tram station to where I live would be an example:

3BgEPbb.jpg

As Google Maps sucks for Vienna, excuse my "artistic" endeavors. The tram tracks are in the road center. The stop is split. To the left of the pedestrian crossing, you have the stop that serves traffic to the right, and on the right side of the crossing is the stop for the other direction. You can see ghosts (blue markings) of a tram at the left stop and a Citaro bus at the right stop. The dark red markings are moving or, hopefully, waiting cars. The passengers have to wait on the sidewalk. On the left, the bus stops at the curb (where the concrete section is) and the tram in the middle of the street. On the right, both tram and bus stop in the middle on the tram tracks (the bus has to take a left turn soon). In both cases, passengers have to cross a driving lane to get to the tram and in one case to get to the bus. You can see the "H" on the street as a warning for drivers on the left side.

I can only imagine this to be a complete disaster in the game, so I don't think I would want to have this in my city, as I mentioned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for sharing! I see that on one side of the road there is a small 'island for passengers to wait on the tram in the center of the road.  However one side (on the left) seems to have passengers waiting on the pavement and crossing to board the tram...So I will consider it.  Problem is that even if I did want to do this, I don't know if I can separate the gathering place from the boarding place by that much space in the game...But for your troubles I can look into it as a possible option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, andreharv said:

Thanks for sharing! I see that on one side of the road there is a small 'island for passengers to wait on the tram in the center of the road.  However one side (on the left) seems to have passengers waiting on the pavement and crossing to board the tram...

No, there are no islands for waiting passengers. All passengers have to wait on the sidewalks, in both directions, and enter the trams from the road. The only island on the image is at the pedestrian crossing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, andreharv said:

Oh...thought that ped crossing was part of the station...gotcha *;)

*:D I know it's weird... and you have to always keep a stern eye on the drivers in their cars. They get particularly upset if you make it to the crossroads before they can start driving away *:D.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, andreharv said:

... I did not see a single example of a stop being on the side pavement and the actual tram stop in the middle of the road (please send examples of this).

Here is another example. https://www.google.de/maps/@52.5252273,13.4997745,3a,75y,1.8h,91.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDvw0CO-eMVFCkYq4nlkZQw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Cars have to wait while the tram is at the stop. Most of small roads with tram tracks in Berlin use this type of stop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to chime in that Toronto has this on many of its Streetcar lines (all lines except the Spadina line and 509 Union line run mostly in this configuration). 

And yes, it's as stupid as it sounds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Philadelphia also has center trolley tracks with side boarding on 4-lane roads:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9779823,-75.2459854,3a,60y,340.21h,82.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7iJ6HPXSKaH1aaird3olcw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

and my personal favorite, a single bi-directional trolley track with side boarding on a 2ish lane road:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9177878,-75.388628,3a,60y,283.8h,77.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVVYChiT1nCrs4uOkyeYyVg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any way you can make a 4m (half-cell) wide alleyway without sidewalks? They're pretty common in Toronto for connecting local resident's garages to roads and really useful for local traffic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thought for bicycle infrastructure: Creating 4m wide bike lanes (two-way) and 2m wide bike lanes (one-way) with traffic / pedestrian signals. I know bike signals aren't in-game, but this could be done by making the bike lanes function as "roads" with bike lanes only (excluding pedestrian and vehicular traffic) so that when they intersect with a road, signals show up for them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, alborzka said:

Another thought for bicycle infrastructure: Creating 4m wide bike lanes (two-way) and 2m wide bike lanes (one-way) with traffic / pedestrian signals. I know bike signals aren't in-game, but this could be done by making the bike lanes function as "roads" with bike lanes only (excluding pedestrian and vehicular traffic) so that when they intersect with a road, signals show up for them.

Actually kinda a good idea - similar to the pedestrian only roads.  You'd have to disallow zoning on them i reckon 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Some ideas for bus stops where bike lanes exist, maybe the first or third option can be incorporated into the mod (with the shelter, if any, on the island)?

https://globaldesigningcities.org/publication/global-street-design-guide/designing-streets-people/designing-for-cyclists/cycle-facilities/cycle-facilities-at-transit-stop/

Also, in general it'd be nice to be able to have bus stops "bulb out" from roads with parking, and/or be in-lane for roads with grass/trees (i.e. remove grass/trees but leave the bus stop area just paved instead of making a groove into the sidewalk), instead of having them all be pull-out bus stops as they are now. This in-lane bus stop behaviour is seen with alleys and the small 4-lane roads, as they have "no more space" to take away from the sidewalk so they keep the road the way it is -- maybe this same behaviour can be applied to grassed/treed roads so that bus stops remain in-lane? Bulb-out and in-lane bus stops are much better for transit since merging back into traffic is problematic for pull-out stops, and this is widely accepted as best practice.


  Edited by alborzka  

Added another request for bus stops and added explantion on how to possibly achieve this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, you've probably been asked this before, but is there any way you can incorporate Dutch cycle intersections for all roads with bike lanes? I understand that cyclists in C:S already kind of obey this and much of this can be done with props and decals, but here the cars are forced to make sharper turns because of the islands (which is a good thing for safety) as right now cars will go right with long corner radii (i.e. go closer to the corner/curb, thus going faster) which can't be forced with mods/props; plus, cyclists will take left turns properly.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, alborzka said:

Why not? (And which, the bus stops or the intersection?)

sorry i meant the intersections, because the angle that cars turn at can't be changed. they make an arc based on where each lane end is, so you can't make it sharper or smoother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Darn lol :(

Ah well, I'm hoping at least the bus stops can be implemented, especially the bus/bike lane combo ones as that's lacking in the current bike lane roads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, alborzka said:

Darn lol :(

Ah well, I'm hoping at least the bus stops can be implemented, especially the bus/bike lane combo ones as that's lacking in the current bike lane roads.

I think it's a possibility but it depends on what size road you want it on.  Remember that for small roads there's 16m width to work with so 2x3m car lanes + 2x3m buslanes = only 2m on either side for the path and the bike lane. 

If you make the road any wider than you basically need to double the width so it still follows the games grid when being placed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Bad Peanut said:

I think it's a possibility but it depends on what size road you want it on.  Remember that for small roads there's 16m width to work with so 2x3m car lanes + 2x3m buslanes = only 2m on either side for the path and the bike lane. 

If you make the road any wider than you basically need to double the width so it still follows the games grid when being placed. 

This is true, so I'm hoping it can be used with small 2-lane roads (so buses and cars share it, or just a bus lane road) or large 4/6 lane roads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an Account  

Sign up to join our friendly community. It's easy!  

Register a New Account

Sign In  

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×

volume5_md.pngPlease help us reach our September Goal!

Your contribution helps keep Simtropolis up and running!

Please consider a donation today.

We need to continue to raise enough money each month to pay for expenses which includes hardware, bandwidth, software licenses, support licenses and other necessary 3rd party costs.

By way of a "Thank You" gift, we'd like to send you our STEX Collector's DVD. It's some of the best buildings, lots, maps and mods collected for you over the years. Check out the STEX Collections for more info.

Each donation goes to help us keep the site running free.

Enjoy the site!

OK - See STEX Collections