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OcramsRzr

Idea Suggestion: Complex Economy

10 posts in this topic

After seeing the wonderful progress accomplished in such a short time, I thought is might be a good idea to make my suggestion on how the economy might behave in the beta stage (possibly earlier if modders desire this and have the ability to accomplish this). Currently, we have generic factories that produce industrial products, generic farms that produce generic food, generic shops that sell products and/or food, and offices which we know little about (I presume they don't consume products but provide office services, which is probably just a statistical supply and demand metric right now). I think this is really good for where the game is at right now but I have a suggestion for the future, have more specialized buildings with specialized products and consumables. I can give an example below:

 

Occupant Categories by zone:

 

Residential

 

Commercial (retail and services)

 

Industrial

 

Agricultural

 

Offices

 

Hotels

 

Government (bureaucracy)

 

Combinations:

 

Housing can be combined with commerce

Hotels can be combined with commerce

Offices can be combined with commerce or government

 

Built/plopped occupants:

 

Utilities

 

Raw Material extraction

 

Keystone Factories (raw material processing and refining, production of specialized goods from refined and processed raw materials)

 

Tourist Attractions

 

Specific Government Buildings

 

Demands (besides utilities):

 

Housing requires employment, food, and happiness

 

Commercial Retail requires employees, customers and something to sell

 

Commercial Services requires employees and customers

 

Industrial requires employees and materials to be made into a finished product to ship to commercial retail (that is eventually sold), with a benefit to productivity and profitability from access to office services

 

Agriculture requires employees

 

Offices require employees and benefit from paper and electronics

 

Hotels require employees and tourists

 

Examples of Resources used

 

Fuel: Petroleum, Natural Gas, Coal, possibly biomass and Uranium

 

Mined Raw Materials: Iron Ore, Bauxite, Copper Ore, Rare Earth Elements, Gold, Gems

 

Harvested Raw Materials: Logs, Fibers, Fruits/Vegetables, Grains, Spices/Herbs, Livestock

 

Refined Materials: Fuels, Iron, Aluminum, Copper, Steel, Super Alloy, Jewelry, Electrical Equipment, Processors, Electronics, Lumber, Furniture, Fabric, Clothing, Machinery, Automobiles, Appliances, Paper, fresh food, processed food, convenience food, health food, luxury meals, beverages

 

RCI/Zoning Growth Demands

 

Residential demands jobs based off education level and wealth level and demand products (including types of food) based mostly off wealth level with small effects from cultural and educational factors

 

All employers demand workers of the appropriate wealth level and at least half of the workers (or 3/4 of the managers) be of the appropriate education level

 

Commercial retail demands access to goods of the appropriate type and only grow if there is demand for that product

 

Commercial services only grow if there is demand for their service

 

Hotels only grow if there are enough tourists who want a place to spend the night

 

 

 

 

_______

 

 

If I am forgetting any details that would make my system not work, please fill me in. Also, remember that this is for a far later stage than the game is currently in and this ties in with my idea for more wealth levels of residents.

 

--Ocram


  Edited by OcramSeattle

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I was thinking about same thing to wrote (not as detailed as your insights)...

 

Agriculture also require industrial goods (machines/equipment/chemistry).

 

But... I don't think that Anzelm want to create something that will implement transport tycoon (open ttd) into city builder game at start - probably with mods

transport tycoon as Industries or even OTTD mod FIRS or ECS Vectors.

If Anzelm will allow modders to add supply chains I think that those chains in link above would be possible to implement... and maybe some other things that only selected stores could sell specific goods ;)

 

 

 

ps. I think that ppl that request some features dont realize that they will be overwhelmed by things to micro manage and Anzelm will never finnish the game :)

Citybound 2, 3... ;)

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This idea seems good as an extra difficulty level. Adding this much micromanagement will make creating large cities very very hard. But a very simple zoning, demands and a resource chain shouldn't be too much work and shouldn't make the gameplay too hard.

But it's a good idea for futur expansions or mods for sure!

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My idea was that this would be a mod or a special game mode that would be implemented in a year or two if there were modders who desired this to be added.

 

I would think that the various products could be broken down into categories and that some factories and some shops might be able to utilize product in a certain category. If at least half of each chain is done in the private sector (zoned buildings), then all that would change would be the type of buildings that grow if you already have well-balanced zones. Remember that CityBound already allows your city to have a small surplus or deficit without too much of a problem so if importing and exporting could be handled (on a small scale) without player intervention, then this could be far easier (though the AI would have to be advanced).

 

I would imagine that if one has a low-to-moderately educated workforce of only laborers and skilled workers, there would only be demand for basic necessities (cheap food, clothing, and appliances) and they would be very happy with adequate grocers, thrift shops, hardware stores, and supermarkets (or a couple of hypermarkets) and commercial services. That would mean farms, fiber plantations, textile mills, tailors, a food processing plant, and basic manufacturing industry (for appliances) would be the only zoned occupants needed in a sizable working class city. You could add in low or medium wealth offices and you would still require few imports (or you could add a recycling plant and a tree plantation). You could benefit from an iron mine and a foundry (for the industry) or you could import the metal.

 

The wealthier and more educated the citizens are, the more demanding they become for variety but Keystone resource extraction, processing, and refining buildings would only increase city revenue, they would not be required.

 

--Ocram

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I think that while possibly fun to play, the thinking here is a bit too conventional and last century in a few ways. First, the access to high wealth citizens for high wealth jobs assumes little to no upward or downward mobility, and anyone with the appropriate education level should be able to get a job regardless of their current wealth level.  Second, the economy is global now, and huge metropolisi are so huge because the work on an international stage and scale.  Import and export should be not only possible, but essential to having sustained cities of over a certian threshold.  Further, (and I'm not sure how difficult a thing this would be technically speaking) things like higher education and large public works like highways or intercity trains usually have some sort of subsidy from either a state government or a national government, and I imagine in Europe even an international entity like the EU for international trains and the like.  I wonder if we can control on a larger scale these types of decisions in a manner that would affect all our cities in a similar way?

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Thank you for the feedback. I was thinking that imports and exports would be essential to larger cities but poor villages would be able to "get by" without them. Maybe you are right that it would be better to group jobs by education level instead of wealth level but I thought that a combination of both would be appropriate to determine a qualification level. Even today, social mobility is low and high earning supervising jobs (upper management and executives) are more about connections than education (though connections can get one more prestigious education). Anyway, if this is a mod, the weight of education vs wealth could be adjusted.

--Ocram

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Fair enough point. I suppose that I'd like to see it be the way it ought to be, vs. the way it is. This may be a flaw, but I also think it's helpful for people to play games that can show them the potential of how it could and should be. Also, perhaps what I think it ought to be is not how it actually ought to be. 

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great discussion :)

 

I don't play much games, but the concept that one product requires many other products as its ingredients is very logical. this concept was deployed in the game simcountry that I played, but that game still does not have the proper logic of ingredients for a product yet;

 

for example, if you're starting a say rice farmer, you will need the followings:

1. you will need the rice seeds

2. you will need the land, the proper soil for this crop

3. you will need machines (i.e. tractors, planes, collectors/cutters, harvesters, etc)

4. you will need fertilizers, or some kind of ingredients to help grow the crop

5. you will need water

6. you will workers

7. you will need processing equipment, to turn this product into many types and forms

8. you will need storage equipment

9. you will need vehicles to transport the end product to your buyers

10. you will need an accounting system to track your products from this product in a transparent manner (debit/credit)

11. you will need a system to track the money you make and expense in this operation

 

the above are just some of the top of my mind at the moment. the quantity for each that is require for this rice farm will have to be properly chosen that make sense, and that would be researching or talking to actual rice farmers on our real earth. as you may see that each of the above ingredients require its own shop/industry to make it too. the complex integration of the industries would be the challenge.

 

as I have said, I think simcountry does this integration nicely, except that its injection of its subjective "quality" concept into each product destroys the whole beautifulness of the system. for example, it does not make sense to have electricity produced at quality 100 and electricity produced at quality 300, the sell this product at different prices; we on earth knows that electricity is electricity, the electrons are the same whether is electricity produced from solar, coal, water, or nuclear processes. so don't make the same mistakes that some other games already made, learn from their experience.

 

again, thanks for this discussion. looking forward to see the outcomes :)

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great discussion :)

 

I don't play much games, but the concept that one product requires many other products as its ingredients is very logical. this concept was deployed in the game simcountry that I played, but that game still does not have the proper logic of ingredients for a product yet;

 

for example, if you're starting a say rice farmer, you will need the followings:

1. you will need the rice seeds

2. you will need the land, the proper soil for this crop

3. you will need machines (i.e. tractors, planes, collectors/cutters, harvesters, etc)

4. you will need fertilizers, or some kind of ingredients to help grow the crop

5. you will need water

6. you will workers

7. you will need processing equipment, to turn this product into many types and forms

8. you will need storage equipment

9. you will need vehicles to transport the end product to your buyers

10. you will need an accounting system to track your products from this product in a transparent manner (debit/credit)

11. you will need a system to track the money you make and expense in this operation

 

the above are just some of the top of my mind at the moment. the quantity for each that is require for this rice farm will have to be properly chosen that make sense, and that would be researching or talking to actual rice farmers on our real earth. as you may see that each of the above ingredients require its own shop/industry to make it too. the complex integration of the industries would be the challenge.

 

as I have said, I think simcountry does this integration nicely, except that its injection of its subjective "quality" concept into each product destroys the whole beautifulness of the system. for example, it does not make sense to have electricity produced at quality 100 and electricity produced at quality 300, the sell this product at different prices; we on earth knows that electricity is electricity, the electrons are the same whether is electricity produced from solar, coal, water, or nuclear processes. so don't make the same mistakes that some other games already made, learn from their experience.

 

again, thanks for this discussion. looking forward to see the outcomes :)

Thank you for the input but that seems a bit excessive. I would like to break down what I think is a good idea I had not thought of before and something I don't plan on implementing in a mod (if I were to mod the game to add 6 wealth levels and a complex economy).

1. Seeds: I think that simulating seeds seems a bit excessive but I think that it might be a good idea for the free market to decide what type of farm should grow (grain, fruit, vegetable, legume, meat/dairy, sugar, nuts, oils, textiles/dyes, and luxuries)

2. Land and fertility makes sense. It was in several other games. That is a very good idea.

3. I think that a generic "machine factory" would be a very good idea. It would increase the production of farms and other factories significantly and possibly speed up construction.

4. A generic "fertilizer factory" (grow in industrial zone) and possibly a fertilizer storage and distribution building (placed in middle of agriculture area) makes perfect sense. It would either be made from generic fuel or produce fertilizer without raw materials (depending on how difficult you want it).

5. I agree water is important. Maybe also have rain so that areas with enough rain don't need as much water?

6. Needing workers is a given. Maybe make sure that low skill or low-wealth workers get first priority as farm hands and have increased productivity if educated (or experienced) farmers work farms that already have access to machinery and fertilizer.

7. A food processing factory is a very good idea. There could either be an industrial factory that processes raw foods and turns them into canned or convenience food (and possibly other processed foods) or have the food processing happen on higher level farms.

8. I can see 2 types of warehouses: private sector (on farms, in factories, and just plain warehouses as light industry) and plopped/public sector (placed near farms to boost productivity, placed near homes or shops to boost happiness, or placed near industry to boost productivity and imports or exports).

9. Vehicles could either be free, produced in factories or imported (or a combo such as initial vehicles are free but low quality and eventually have to be imported or produced and that factories that produce them can export excess). That is a smart idea.

10+11: I think that banking, accounting, and logistics should be included as "office services" which is what generic offices should produce.

Keep up the great suggestions and feedback everyone!

--Ocram

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Complexity is all very well, but look what happened to Banished when this was sort-of done.  That simulator is one of the slowest I've ever run.

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