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A Nonny Moose

Criminal attack on Nairobi Shopping Mall

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Two Canadians Killed.

 

The time is coming (has come?) when the hash in Somalia needs to be settled permanently.  Something must be done about this failed African state.  All it takes is the will and the money.  Since "Al-Shabaab claims responsibility", perhaps it is time to call them and any Al Quaeda outfit to account.

 

Any suggestions?  Minor incursions by neighbouring states has not solved this.

 

American Report.

 

Perhaps this is why we need UN reaction forces staged strategically around the world.

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I agree with you Nonny Moose something needs to be done. Putting UN forces in Somolia should have been done a long time ago and maybe this terrorist act wouldn't have happened over in Kenya. The UN has Islamic countries in place and with Russia & China backing them it is hard to do anything but hopefully Kenya will be able to do something and hopefully with some help from our countries.

What also needs to happen though is that the world needs to stand up together and put a end to the terrorist organizations of Islam and acknowledge the fact that it is not a peaceful religion. Something needs to be done before it comes into our malls, stores and even into our very homes here in the US and Canada, all over the planet really. These people are dedicated to killing all of us and even my own government turns a blind eye to it and gives them the very weapons they need to kill Christians and other people of different faiths simply because they are not Muslim and even if you aren't of a religious faith they will still get you also. Everyone is in their cross hairs, how much more proof does one need?

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One needs to pay attention to the teaching of Mohammad and the Koran.  Islam is not a warlike or violent religion.  It is to the "advantage" of some Islamic extremists behave in this manner.  What needs to happen is for Islamic countries to unite and swat them all.

 

Since Islam, unlike Christianity, doesn't have a central authority (the Vatican is for protestants to be distracted) then they must first organize some kind of icon that establishes the authority under Allah.  I believe that the Koran sort of forbids this, so they are now between a rock and a hard place.  Since this is a religious issue to a certain degree, it will be necessary for the Muslim states to criminalize these extremists and thus turn them over to the "secular arm" for disposition.  The best thing that strong Islamic nations can do is denounce such actions as attacks on non-Muslims. 

 

As "people of the book" we Christians are supposed to be exempt from all this, by the way.

 

Ban Ki Moon should get off this high horse, get in a room with the Arab League nations and get this sorted out.  No one leaves before there is an agreement.  Mr. Ban can delegate his office until this is solved.

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You can't take a failed state and make it work. Somalia is a tribal country and sadly this means a number of tribes don't get along well. There is nothing to unite them, except maybe a brutal dictator. But that is going to result in a small genocide. Do people here have the guts to accept such a deal? 

 

And what can we do? Invade the place? That would cost billions of dollars in a time we can't spare billions of dollars, all for some globally insignificant place? Let the Africans deal with it, its their continent, their neighbor, their responsibility. I'm not willing to pay a single cent for the West to have some adventure over there. 

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Yes, somalia is the world's second worst country, it's an anarchy, thanks to the Al Shabab and Al Qaeda. Probably the only country worse than somalia is the totalitarian dictatorship of North Korea. But unlike NK which we hope the government to collapse, somalia should be controlled by a totalitarian dictator like NK's until the country became stable enough to be ruled by a democratic government.

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Follow up.

 

Kenya needs to treat this as a full-scale invasion.  Since these criminals are intent on murder, no negotiations are possible.  It is now a matter of kill or be killed.

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Somalia needs to be cleaned up. North Korea I wouldn't worry about. They don't preach killing all North Koreans. They're just a bit loud for their size. But these militant Islamists are a proper dangerous lot and ought to be circumvented properly.

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Somalia, particularly Mogadishu has been flourishing since Al-Shabab have been driven out into rural areas. The amount of reconstruction and economic investment is huge, particularly from Turkey. This gives hope that Somalia may actually have a lot of potential if Al Shabab can be defeated altogether. Most Somalians are simply tired of tribalism and fighting and are ready to move on. If you look at this forum here http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1317941 you will see some of the reconstruction and investment.

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The basic problem with Somalia is the fact that nobody has the will and the funds to tackle this job.  Al Shabab (the youth) are getting pretty old by now, and if they haven't grown up they'll have to be stamped out.  Since all they've been doing is fighting, it is clear that not many of them are anything but illiterate tribesmen led by demagogues.  An operation to take out the leaders might be worthwhile.

 

If this was a century ago, the Empire would have cleaned up this mess.  Alas for all the Empire busting after WW II.

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I highly doubt these terrorist organizations are structured in such a way that if you blow up the leaders the organization dies. It didn't work like that with Al Queda either. God knows how many times the US shot a rocket up the number 2 guy's behind only to find that he got replaced immediately and that every terrorist cell operates almost independently anyway. Hell they killed Bin Laden and that hasn't contributed anything to the total demise of Al Queda. 

 

The idea that killing the top leadership of an organization destroys the organization is rooted in traditional thinking. It applies to traditional armies, not these bands of extremists. There is no reason to believe that shooting hellfire missiles at the number 1 and 2 of Al Shabab will even hurt them. On top of that, it is not our responsibility to root out terrorist organization in parts of the world that we don't own. Somalia, Kenya and Ethopia are sovereign nations. let them deal with their own problems. Now if they ask us for help, that might change things a bit, but the primary responsibility of dealing with these pests lies on their shoulders, not ours. 

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I think Al-Shabab could be defeated much easier than your regular Islamic extremist group.  They are poorly armed, have little organisation, and have been driven out of Somalia's main cities rather easily. A concerted effort by a few countries could see them wiped out. If Sri Lanka can remove the Tamil's armed resistance, removing Al Shabab should be possible.

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Being affiliated with Al Qaeda doesn't mean Al Shabab gets anything beyond Internet moral support from Al Qaeda.  If they were shoved out of the cities with some minor effort, surrounding them and mopping them up root and branch may not be so hard to accomplish. 

 

If Kenya needs help there is the Arab League, and Kenya is still a member of the Commonwealth of Nations I think.  There are enough members of the Commonwealth around them for them to get the help they need.  They are currently getting advice from Israel, I believe.  Expertise is also available from Sri Lanka, no doubt.

 

Maybe what the central government that has come into being in Somalia just needs some good advice and encouragement plus some physical help from Kenya.  Murdering criminals need to be put down like mad dogs.

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I think Al-Shabab could be defeated much easier than your regular Islamic extremist group.  They are poorly armed, have little organisation, and have been driven out of Somalia's main cities rather easily. A concerted effort by a few countries could see them wiped out. If Sri Lanka can remove the Tamil's armed resistance, removing Al Shabab should be possible.

Of course, that bit is easy. Just like the Americans had absolutely no problem driving the Taliban out of the cities. And 10 years later they are still not fully destroyed. Look, driving these people out of cities is easy because then you are fighting them on your terms. At that moment they operate like regular armies. Granted, poorly trained regular armies, but regular armies non the less. Drive them out of the cities and they go to the country side. they lie low, and they switch tactics. Rather than operating like regular armies, they split up in cells with each operating independently from each other, and with one simple goal. Cause chaos, hurt people, kill people. At least, thats what they will do if they have even half a brain in their head. And when you are planning a military operation, you have to account for the worst possible scenario, and that is simply another Iraq and Afghanistan. 

 

Bombing people will not change their mindset. Dropping a bomb will not turn extremists into moderates. Killing them does, which is nice, if you know exactly who is an extremist and who isn't. And you don't know who is on that list. And you also don't know how long the list is. So you can start killing them, but you don't know if you missed any. 

 

And sure, right now the Somalis don't like Al Shabab. Just like the Iraqi's didnt like Saddam and the Afghan people didn't like the Taliban. See how quick their attitudes change the moment some foreign army comes barging in. 

 

Invade Somalia and you have a disaster on your hands. 

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I am not calling for an American invasion, I believe African troops with strategic western support (materials, drones, etc) could do the job. Al-Shabab are nowhere near the level of the Taliban or the Iraqi Army.

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I am not calling for an American invasion, I believe African troops with strategic western support (materials, drones, etc) could do the job. Al-Shabab are nowhere near the level of the Taliban or the Iraqi Army.

The Iraqi army crumbled in a matter of weeks. They were not the ones causing all the trouble afterwards. The Taliban again also crumbled in weeks, only to retreat to hard to reach places, regroup and begin a terror campaign. Which isn't that hard, nor does it require a lot of training. Anyone with only the minimal knowledge can rig a car to explode. And given the material still floating around in Somalia it won't be hard for them to get the required resources to do so. So yeah, you can drive them out until they scatter, hide, pretend to be civilians, while crafting a car bomb in some storage garage. Then all they have to do is drive it to a busy place and press a button. Done. 

 

As for their level of organization and training, you may not think highly of them, but they were just able to sneak across the border, and coordinate an attack on a mall and hold that mall for over 3 days. Sure, they are not trained at the level of professional soldiers, but they aren't complete amateurs either. 

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Kenya is very poor at handling terror situations. With one British Citizen killed and six as hostages, among other fatalities such as mentioned above, this is very much a commonwealth issue. I would call on the UN to establish some kind of "holding the reigns" for a free election.

The problem with this of course is the dictator is technically still in charge.

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