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A Nonny Moose

Cyberbullying - Suicide - Police Charges

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Bullying is wrong but what they did was worse than that, they raped that poor girl. To group their heinous crime with snarky facebook comments is a disservice.

On a different note suicide should be legalized, both private and assisted, as long as doctors approve it.

--Ocram

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A Nonny Moose    7,758
  • Original Poster
  • The pornographers are not shown to have participated in the rape.  If the perps in the video can be identified, charges could be laid.  Being a witness, even a recording and distributing one, is not participation in the offence.

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    The pornographers are not shown to have participated in the rape.  If the perps in the video can be identified, charges could be laid.  Being a witness, even a recording and distributing one, is not participation in the offence.

    Even then they are 2 years late with arresting the rapists. The girl was 15 when they raped her, and she killed herself when she was 17. 

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    Couldn't the police charge the guys with rape? If they raped her and took a pic of it it seems rape would be a more important charge than child porn...

     

    Convicting someone of rape generally requires the victim to testify against them. Since the victim is dead now, it is impossible to prove that the sex was not consensual. And for all we know it may have been - but that's not really the point here. Her consenting to the sex does not make the ensuing abuse any less humiliating. The poor girl was subject to inordinate amounts of bullying following a photograph from that night becoming public, and because of that some consequences are therefore in order for the people who published it - especially considering it ultimately resulted in her death.

     

    Cyberbullying is a problematic thing because it is a new phenomenon and existing laws don't do a good job of addressing it. Bullying has been around forever, but traditionally it was different. Today, the prevalence of social media has amplified this many times from a problem that victims generally can manage to something that can break the strongest willed of people. It's one thing to be bullied by a small group of people when they encountered you in person. It's another thing entirely to, with the assistance of technology, be bullied by huge swarms of people incessantly, no matter where you are or what you're doing. With cyberbullying, unlike with traditional bullying, the victim cannot run away from, ignore, or avoid his or her aggressors. Because of this, there is a very heightened necessity for adults and even law enforcement to intervene in order to prevent it from ending tragically.

     

    I would propose that emotionally abusing someone to the point where they kill themselves should be a crime on the order of manslaughter, and the perpetrators punished accordingly.

     

    I do wonder, though, what people will think of this in 30 years - I feel like a major part of the problem here is that this is happening via technology that did not exist when parents and other adults were the same age as the teens now are. When people who grew up with smartphones and social media are the parents, they will likely be more cognizant of what their children are doing with them than today's parents are. Of course, who knows what other technologies unknown to us now will be prevalent among the youth by then, possible creating their own set of problems that we won't be well equipped to handle.

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    A Nonny Moose    7,758
  • Original Poster
  • The legal response to uncouth comments on the social media should be the same as in ordinary discourse.  There are lots of libel and slander statutes on the books.

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    [snip]

    Cyberbullying is a problematic thing because it is a new phenomenon and existing laws don't do a good job of addressing it. Bullying has been around forever, but traditionally it was different. Today, the prevalence of social media has amplified this many times from a problem that victims generally can manage to something that can break the strongest willed of people. It's one thing to be bullied by a small group of people when they encountered you in person. It's another thing entirely to, with the assistance of technology, be bullied by huge swarms of people incessantly, no matter where you are or what you're doing. With cyberbullying, unlike with traditional bullying, the victim cannot run away from, ignore, or avoid his or her aggressors. Because of this, there is a very heightened necessity for adults and even law enforcement to intervene in order to prevent it from ending tragically.

    [snip]

    What do you mean that a victim cannot ignore or avoid aggressors? On facebook and My__, you can block other users. On facebook (which is the most used social media platform), you can unfriend people so you don't have to see them. Also, facebook, My__ and Twitter are not necessary. You can avoid visiting them unless you suffer from internet addiction, in which case you should seek help (because teenagers with Internet Addiction, tendency towards suicide (or self-harm), and high levels of attention craving have serious issues and are not that rare).

    --Ocram

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    What do you mean that a victim cannot ignore or avoid aggressors? On facebook and My__, you can block other users. On facebook (which is the most used social media platform), you can unfriend people so you don't have to see them. Also, facebook, My__ and Twitter are not necessary. You can avoid visiting them unless you suffer from internet addiction, in which case you should seek help (because teenagers with Internet Addiction, tendency towards suicide (or self-harm), and high levels of attention craving have serious issues and are not that rare).

    --Ocram

     

    The problem is not so much that you can't block people online. The problem is more that social media networks make it possible for certain bits of information to be spread rapidly. And then you might block everyone online, that won't prevent others from spreading that information to others around you and you still have to deal with these people offline, on school or work. Furthermore, social media has made it much more difficult to run away and hide. You might move to another town, but if someone wants to, its relatively easy to find out where you are going and then contact people in your new town, and they will ensure that the harmful information is spread around again. 

     

     

    What in this particular case is infinitely more obvious and harmful is not so much the bullying but the attitude of people. This is a perfect example of rape culture. Someone gets raped, and everyone thinks its perfectly normal that people make pictures of it, post it online, spread it around, and subsequently go bully the rape victim. Wasn't there anyone who said 'wait a minute, what the hell are we doing, that girl got raped and we high five the rapists rather than lynching those filthy perverts? We are bullying the victim rather than comforting her and helping her get over a horrible experience?' 

     

    I guess not and as a result, rape culture has claimed another life. And even now, when the girl is dead, we are not addressing the real issue. Instead we get topics and talking heads about cyber bullying, like that is the real issue here. Cyber bullying is simply a symptom, a symptom of a culture that teaches people to have no respect whatsoever for women and no compassion for rape victims. I think that is the thing that should be addressed here. 

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    [snip]

    Cyberbullying is a problematic thing because it is a new phenomenon and existing laws don't do a good job of addressing it. Bullying has been around forever, but traditionally it was different. Today, the prevalence of social media has amplified this many times from a problem that victims generally can manage to something that can break the strongest willed of people. It's one thing to be bullied by a small group of people when they encountered you in person. It's another thing entirely to, with the assistance of technology, be bullied by huge swarms of people incessantly, no matter where you are or what you're doing. With cyberbullying, unlike with traditional bullying, the victim cannot run away from, ignore, or avoid his or her aggressors. Because of this, there is a very heightened necessity for adults and even law enforcement to intervene in order to prevent it from ending tragically.

    [snip]

    What do you mean that a victim cannot ignore or avoid aggressors? On facebook and My__, you can block other users. On facebook (which is the most used social media platform), you can unfriend people so you don't have to see them. Also, facebook, My__ and Twitter are not necessary. You can avoid visiting them unless you suffer from internet addiction, in which case you should seek help (because teenagers with Internet Addiction, tendency towards suicide (or self-harm), and high levels of attention craving have serious issues and are not that rare).

    --Ocram

     

    True, but it certainly doesnt stop people spreading information about you.

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    A Nonny Moose    7,758
  • Original Poster
  • And, of course, the information is quite often misinformation. 

     

    It is amazing what an imagination is attached to a keyboard, eh.  Spreading of slander and libel becomes amplified.  One has to be ever so careful with firestorms like the social media.  One little slip and some malevolent type will drown you in your own stupidity.

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    Hmm. Very bad thing to happen. Then again thousands of girls get raped and we never hear about it. 

     

    My opinion on bullying is that cyberbullying is the same as any other form, however it can only constitute verbal bullying. Due to this and the existence of the 'block' button at Facebook I do not think it should be considered in the same manner as regular physical bullying. As nasty as it is it isn't physical and is easily removed and ended.

     

    The problem of viral videos/pictures etc... Is a problem certainly. However one must question whether a girl who gets drunk on vodka hasn't got a certain percentage of blame? Not that I would side against her, certainly not. I don't condone rape in any form whatsoever. However the issue of 'rape culture' is linked with 'party culture' and the excesses of partying. I think this is one of those systemic problems that need complex management.

     

    Alas this is not one weed and one removal tool. Party culture is very complex and has many causes and symptoms. The whole issue of underage drinking and sex is a rather violent area of debate. It's a bloody trench indeed to battle in.

     

    I think that suicide is just the tip of the iceberg. The problem ceases to exist once the victim has died. We should probably stop waiting for these situations to boil. 

     

    The whole party culture... is a big problem. Too much chavs

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    What do you mean that a victim cannot ignore or avoid aggressors? On facebook and My__, you can block other users. On facebook (which is the most used social media platform), you can unfriend people so you don't have to see them. Also, facebook, My__ and Twitter are not necessary. You can avoid visiting them

     

    Yes, you can block people, but then you can then face retaliation at school for doing so. And yes, you can stop using Facebook, but if it's something you enjoy using (addicted or not), having it ruined for you by bullies is very unpleasant too. And then people can call/text you, which requires changing your phone number in order to stop.

     

    The other problem, especially with teenagers, is how humiliating the experience can be to the point where they will be unwilling to seek help because doing so means admitting to the person they are seeking help from that this is happening to them. If you are being bullied, cyber or otherwise, responsible parents can help (not all parents are responsible, but that's a whole nother discussion). But your average rebellious teen will be damned if they will seek help from their parents about anything, let along something like this.

     

     

    The problem of viral videos/pictures etc... Is a problem certainly. However one must question whether a girl who gets drunk on vodka hasn't got a certain percentage of blame?

     

    It's tough to blame someone for doing something (getting drunk) that is socially normal. If lots of people are doing it it will not so easily be perceived as potentially a bad idea. Especially among teens, who naturally tend to take more risks than adults do and will value impressing their peers over their own well being.

     

    Besides, while getting drunk might have been a poor decision, it would have been harmless had the boys not taken and distributed their picture and set off the cascade of bullying. She made herself more likely to be a victim but she did not make herself a victim.

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    The problem of viral videos/pictures etc... Is a problem certainly. However one must question whether a girl who gets drunk on vodka hasn't got a certain percentage of blame? Not that I would side against her, certainly not. I don't condone rape in any form whatsoever. However the issue of 'rape culture' is linked with 'party culture' and the excesses of partying. I think this is one of those systemic problems that need complex management.

    You clearly have no idea what rape culture is. 

     

    First, you just blamed the victim for getting raped, or you at least place part of the blame on the victim. What you just said is really no better than someone saying that women who dress provocatively are partly responsible for their own rape. That right there is rape culture. Such an attitude, such a culture should be rejected in all its forms. If we claim to live in a free land it means that people can walk around in whatever clothes they want and drink as much as they like and they should not have to fear to be raped. Nor should they be held responsible for getting raped. People need to learn that you should not rape, not that they should not get raped. 

     

    Second, rape culture is in no way linked to a party culture. Rape culture literally means a culture that condones or talks down rape, places the blame with the victims and trivializes the impact of rape. A party culture is simply a culture of excessive partying with alcohol and drugs and where everyone goes clubbing every evening. The two can perfectly exist side by side, but there is no link between them. The fact that people party a lot does not shape their views on rape. 

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    1. In response to Duke87, retaliation at school for blocking or unfriending a bully on facebook becomes the territory of traditional bullying, which society can better handle since it has experience with dealing with it and has rules and laws regarding it.

    2. Rape culture is bad. No one should rape anyone but (at least in every civilized area, such as where I live) underage drinking and public intoxication are illegal and are known to lead to worse things. Every culture should teach responsible behavior, not just regarding rape but also regarding drug use (and alcohol is a drug). If the police intervened earlier, most of the people at that party would spend the night in jail for their drug/alcohol usage and no one would have gotten hurt (including rape and death). My opinion is that people in the demographics most susceptible to becoming victims should take precautions. This includes avoiding intoxication, avoiding illegal gatherings, avoiding areas of ill repute, and preventing yourself from being mistaken for a prostitute. Women who put themselves in danger have another line of defense, the anti-rape device invented in South Africa.

    --Ocram

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    If we claim to live in a free land it means that people can walk around in whatever clothes they want and drink as much as they like and they should not have to fear to be raped. Nor should they be held responsible for getting raped.

     

    I agree that it isn't a rape victim's fault that they are a victim, but there is a bigger picture here. Rapist and rape victim are predator and prey. Telling people to stop being rapists is a valuable lesson to teach but in the meantime it is also valuable to teach women to defend against it. This is why pepper spray exists. And this is why getting drunk without having friends who you trust around to look after you is unwise - especially since there are many consequences of excessive drinking, not just the possibility of being coerced into "consenting" to sex.

     

    Being drunk makes you an easier target for muggers and pickpockets and other sketchy people who will look to "roll" you. Being drunk makes you unable to drive and makes you more accident prone no matter what you do. It impairs your judgment and makes you more likely to start fights which may be damaging to you physically. It makes you more likely to do that and other things which may lead to you getting arrested and ending up with a criminal record for disorderly conduct or some other similar charge. And, last but not least, drinking too much can cause alcohol poisoning, and yes, that can even kill you.

     

    Being able to drink as much as you want without fear is not the real world - drinking needs to be done responsibly and you should never drink more than you are prepared to handle the effects of.

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    I agree that it isn't a rape victim's fault that they are a victim, but there is a bigger picture here. Rapist and rape victim are predator and prey. Telling people to stop being rapists is a valuable lesson to teach but in the meantime it is also valuable to teach women to defend against it. This is why pepper spray exists. And this is why getting drunk without having friends who you trust around to look after you is unwise - especially since there are many consequences of excessive drinking, not just the possibility of being coerced into "consenting" to sex.

     

     

    Going to a party of school mates should be a safe thing to do. What happened with raising your kids to respect girls and making it very clear that no means no. 

     

    And the problem I have with teaching women not to get raped is that it essentially places the responsibility of avoiding a serious crime with the victim. 

     

    Being drunk makes you an easier target for muggers and pickpockets and other sketchy people who will look to "roll" you. Being drunk makes you unable to drive and makes you more accident prone no matter what you do. It impairs your judgment and makes you more likely to start fights which may be damaging to you physically. It makes you more likely to do that and other things which may lead to you getting arrested and ending up with a criminal record for disorderly conduct or some other similar charge. And, last but not least, drinking too much can cause alcohol poisoning, and yes, that can even kill you.

     

    Being able to drink as much as you want without fear is not the real world - drinking needs to be done responsibly and you should never drink more than you are prepared to handle the effects of.

     

     

    And when you're drunk and you get mugged, how often do you get told that 'its your own fault for walking down that alley drunk'. And if you report it to the police, how often will they tell you that 'you shouldn't have walked down that street intoxicated'. Right, no one ever tells you that because that is absolutely ridiculous. It doesn't matter if you are drunk, stealing is against the law and there is NO excuse for it. Yet if you are a girl and you get raped, this is exactly what they often hear when they dare to report their rape to anyone. 'Shouldn't have dressed like a slut, that makes you a target' or 'shouldn't have gotten drunk at that party'. There is NO excuse for rape just like there is NO excuse for mugging someone, the blame and responsibility lie entirely with the guy doing the deed and not with the victim. 

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    Certainly it is wrong to rape someone or mug someone but people should not be walking through dangerous areas at night while intoxicated. Mugging is less serious than rape and it is partially the fault of the victim for making itself a target by being drunk in a dark ally. Drunkards often pull attention to themselves by shouting or swearing. Both mugger and victim are to blame in this case. I can see how some people may be hypocritical but I am not hypocritical in that respect.

    --Ocram

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    A Nonny Moose    7,758
  • Original Poster
  • Drinking or doping to the point of incapacity is a failing of youth mostly.  I guess they have to learn somehow, and parental guidance usually isn't available on these subjects though it should be.  It has its own consequences, some of them Darwinian. 

     

    Rape is disgusting.  It is also inevitable in societies like that in India where male children are preferred over female with the result that there are many men unable to find partners.  Only now, in this century, has the Indian public rebelled and decided to make rape an issue.  Apparently before now gang rape was pushed under the carpet, so to speak.

     

    In western society, there is too much emphasis on being 'nice'.  It is stupid, but there you are.  There is altogether too much sexual innuendo in advertising, and the emphasis on this is becoming more and more blatant.  One of these days, someone is going to have to do something drastic to the Mad. Ave. mavens.  Women, especially young women are not objects to be used to promote sales, nor is the implication of sex. 

     

    Sex is nothing to write home about, and only virgins are titillated by the idea.  Once you've had sex, there isn't anything more to say.  Only juvenile personalities try to make something out of it.  It is just a normal biological function common to many species.

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    The problem of viral videos/pictures etc... Is a problem certainly. However one must question whether a girl who gets drunk on vodka hasn't got a certain percentage of blame? Not that I would side against her, certainly not. I don't condone rape in any form whatsoever. However the issue of 'rape culture' is linked with 'party culture' and the excesses of partying. I think this is one of those systemic problems that need complex management.

    You clearly have no idea what rape culture is. 

     

    First, you just blamed the victim for getting raped, or you at least place part of the blame on the victim. What you just said is really no better than someone saying that women who dress provocatively are partly responsible for their own rape. That right there is rape culture. Such an attitude, such a culture should be rejected in all its forms. If we claim to live in a free land it means that people can walk around in whatever clothes they want and drink as much as they like and they should not have to fear to be raped. Nor should they be held responsible for getting raped. People need to learn that you should not rape, not that they should not get raped. 

     

    Second, rape culture is in no way linked to a party culture. Rape culture literally means a culture that condones or talks down rape, places the blame with the victims and trivializes the impact of rape. A party culture is simply a culture of excessive partying with alcohol and drugs and where everyone goes clubbing every evening. The two can perfectly exist side by side, but there is no link between them. The fact that people party a lot does not shape their views on rape. 

     

    You obviously did't read what I said. I said she had a very small percentage of responsibility. I blamed the boys for the rape... Please in future try to read what I post before commenting on it?

     

    At any rate I blame youth culture on the whole for this. But its the parents fault. And probably their parents fault in some cases too. These things are systemic in cultures of low wealth unemployed etc areas. Until you give people an alternative to getting drunk and fighting and raping they will get drunk fight and rape. It is alas what humans were designed to do, however uncivilized it is.

     

    The only solution is removing the socioeconomic problems which stem this sort of culture of 'live fast die young' hippism. 

     

    You don't see teens listening to Bach and Mozart and drinking a pint do you? You see them guzzling a goon bag and listening to Metallica. Why? Because they have no incentive to be cultured types who disdain such things. They aren't being given any reward for proper behaviour.

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    You obviously did't read what I said. I said she had a very small percentage of responsibility. I blamed the boys for the rape... Please in future try to read what I post before commenting on it?

    At any rate I blame youth culture on the whole for this. But its the parents fault. And probably their parents fault in some cases too. These things are systemic in cultures of low wealth unemployed etc areas. Until you give people an alternative to getting drunk and fighting and raping they will get drunk fight and rape. It is alas what humans were designed to do, however uncivilized it is.

    The only solution is removing the socioeconomic problems which stem this sort of culture of 'live fast die young' hippism.

    You don't see teens listening to Bach and Mozart and drinking a pint do you? You see them guzzling a goon bag and listening to Metallica. Why? Because they have no incentive to be cultured types who disdain such things. They aren't being given any reward for proper behaviour.

    You blamed both the boys as well as the girl for the rape. That remains victim blaming.

    Rape culture is systemic in the west, even if economic well of areas or with people who have a bright future. Just look at Steubenville, the rapists there were local star athletes who got a rather promising career ahead of them. Yet they raped a girl at a party. Rape is not exclusive to lowly educated teens, it happens everywhere in all age groups and all socioeconomic classes.

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    Guys! Chill and keep it On Topic, and remember the golden rule of discussing the issues and not each other. I've had to snip a few posts, please keep this civil.

    -ROFLyoshi

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    You obviously did't read what I said. I said she had a very small percentage of responsibility. I blamed the boys for the rape... Please in future try to read what I post before commenting on it?

    At any rate I blame youth culture on the whole for this. But its the parents fault. And probably their parents fault in some cases too. These things are systemic in cultures of low wealth unemployed etc areas. Until you give people an alternative to getting drunk and fighting and raping they will get drunk fight and rape. It is alas what humans were designed to do, however uncivilized it is.

    The only solution is removing the socioeconomic problems which stem this sort of culture of 'live fast die young' hippism.

    You don't see teens listening to Bach and Mozart and drinking a pint do you? You see them guzzling a goon bag and listening to Metallica. Why? Because they have no incentive to be cultured types who disdain such things. They aren't being given any reward for proper behaviour.

    You blamed both the boys as well as the girl for the rape. That remains victim blaming.

    Rape culture is systemic in the west, even if economic well of areas or with people who have a bright future. Just look at Steubenville, the rapists there were local star athletes who got a rather promising career ahead of them. Yet they raped a girl at a party. Rape is not exclusive to lowly educated teens, it happens everywhere in all age groups and all socioeconomic classes.

     

    I didn't blame the girl I said that she by her actions takes a small percent of the responsibility for the cause of the events which transpired. I am not blaming her. I am merely saying that by her getting drunk off her face at one of these stupid parties she wasn't doing herself any favours. Please try not to misunderstand what I say to such an extraordinary degree!

     

    I quite agree with the moderator that this is getting out of hand. I really think a spot of civility is required here.

     

    I am arguing against 'party culture' as a whole, which includes the 'rape culture' of partygoers. I am not suggesting that rape culture does not exist outside party culture. I am arguing against the whole area of 'going out' and 'getting drunk' and so forth. A pint of Guinness never did anyone any harm, and I am not going to make a scapegoat out of alchol or drugs or sex. I blame social problems for this mess. If people were civilized at parties this wouldn't happen, so I'm not against 'parties' per se either.

     

    This is a social issue above all else. Education is certainly a key part of the solution, but for these areas of society to change profoundly requires a broad attack.

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    A Nonny Moose    7,758
  • Original Poster
  • Youth is the same from generation to generation.  They are rebellious and always push through the old social envelope.  In the end, youth is always served -- nicely browned and with an apple in its mouth.  The youth of today is the establishment of tomorrow.

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    So are you condoning partying or saying all's well that ends well or?

     

    I think Darwinian factors would mean that most partying types will either die from their antics or become low class paupers for the remainder of their lives, so certainly most stupid people will never get a proper job or what have you. 

     

    Youth never made sense to me, even when I was five years old. Teenagers always seemed to me like aliens from another relativity where the rules were different. I still don't quite get them and now I'm 22. 

     

    I dunno. Why rebel without a point to it?

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    Going to a party of school mates should be a safe thing to do.

     

    If the "school mates" are teens, the party should have an adult present at all times. No matter what people teach their kids, you don't allow a bunch of minors to party it up in your house without a chaperone. That's just asking for trouble. Police show up to these parties to break them up for good reason. If this policy is enforced, then it is a safe thing to do.

    Which begs the question, was there an adult present at the party the girl got raped at? If not, why not? And if so, what does that person have to say for themself about this?

     

    If we're talking college students (who are adults), then the attendees have more responsibility for themselves. And you can't presume that people who are complete strangers are going to be decent people. To do so is foolish and is how you end up on the receiving end of unpleasant things. Always be wary.

     

    And when you're drunk and you get mugged, how often do you get told that 'its your own fault for walking down that alley drunk'.

     

    It does get said, and it should be said. I will concede, though, that it is not said with nearly the same level of derision as talking to a rape victim.

    If you say something like this to someone who got mugged, you're basically saying "dumbass, be more careful next time!" and it gets quickly moved on from. A friend of mine and her boyfriend got robbed a few months ago by an unlicensed cab driver, and that was basically my reaction to hearing about it: "dumbass, that's why you don't get in gypsy cabs! Those things are sketchy!" (Out of politeness I did not actually say this to them, but I was absolutely thinking it).

     

    With regards to rape, though, I think the problem is a gender bias: men tend to want to side with men, so if a woman gets raped, men will naturally want to find some way to deflect some blame onto the woman rather than condemn their fellow man. To admit that the man who committed the rape carries 100% of the blame feels to a lot men like rooting against their own team. Which is a ridiculous attitude (sex is not a sport, there shouldn't be an offense and a defense), but there you go.

     

    Anyways, the point is, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that responsible adults will take some basic steps to look out their own safety. Saying "I should be able to do whatever I want, wherever and whenever I want, and not ever have the risk that a bad person will do a bad thing to me" is a nice fantasy but it isn't the real world.

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    Going to a party of school mates should be a safe thing to do.

     

    If the "school mates" are teens, the party should have an adult present at all times. No matter what people teach their kids, you don't allow a bunch of minors to party it up in your house without a chaperone. That's just asking for trouble. Police show up to these parties to break them up for good reason. If this policy is enforced, then it is a safe thing to do.

    Which begs the question, was there an adult present at the party the girl got raped at? If not, why not? And if so, what does that person have to say for themself about this?

     

    If we're talking college students (who are adults), then the attendees have more responsibility for themselves. And you can't presume that people who are complete strangers are going to be decent people. To do so is foolish and is how you end up on the receiving end of unpleasant things. Always be wary.

    Agreed. I think that even if they are not directly "in the picture", there should always be an adult somewhere so if things go wrong (as has happened) it can be resolved or prevented. Besides, in my experience there's always the one person who has too much to drink and ends up passing out so they need to be taken care of.

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    If they had to have an adult present they wouldn't have these parties in the first place. I doubt teenagers spend their parties listening to Beethoven and drinking Guinness. Putting responsibility on the grownups just makes the teenagers want to rebel more. I think the whole party culture is problematic. The whole drinking sex and dancing thing is wrong. Whatever happened to normal pastimes like I dunno back when I was thirteen I had a lightsabre... I dunno... But anyway partying should be banned. And all these night clubs should be shut down. And chavs ought to be shot at first sight.

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    If they had to have an adult present they wouldn't have these parties in the first place. I doubt teenagers spend their parties listening to Beethoven and drinking Guinness. Putting responsibility on the grownups just makes the teenagers want to rebel more. I think the whole party culture is problematic. The whole drinking sex and dancing thing is wrong. Whatever happened to normal pastimes like I dunno back when I was thirteen I had a lightsabre... I dunno... But anyway partying should be banned. And all these night clubs should be shut down. And chavs ought to be shot at first sight.

    How very A Clockwork Orange of you. :3

    Banning something just because someone abuses it seldom works a solution. It all just reminds me of Prohibition.

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    It does get said, and it should be said. I will concede, though, that it is not said with nearly the same level of derision as talking to a rape victim.

    If you say something like this to someone who got mugged, you're basically saying "dumbass, be more careful next time!" and it gets quickly moved on from. A friend of mine and her boyfriend got robbed a few months ago by an unlicensed cab driver, and that was basically my reaction to hearing about it: "dumbass, that's why you don't get in gypsy cabs! Those things are sketchy!" (Out of politeness I did not actually say this to them, but I was absolutely thinking it).

     

    With regards to rape, though, I think the problem is a gender bias: men tend to want to side with men, so if a woman gets raped, men will naturally want to find some way to deflect some blame onto the woman rather than condemn their fellow man. To admit that the man who committed the rape carries 100% of the blame feels to a lot men like rooting against their own team. Which is a ridiculous attitude (sex is not a sport, there shouldn't be an offense and a defense), but there you go.

     

    Anyways, the point is, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that responsible adults will take some basic steps to look out their own safety. Saying "I should be able to do whatever I want, wherever and whenever I want, and not ever have the risk that a bad person will do a bad thing to me" is a nice fantasy but it isn't the real world.

     

    Except that women just as quickly turn against the rape victim as the guys do. Rape victims can expect extremely little support or comprehension from their environment. And not just from their peers, adults are no better at all. The police, the school authorities, there are so many examples of them ignoring rape victims and actively protecting the rapists. And honestly, if you tell someone that they are dumbasses for getting in a gypsy cab that is one thing. But if the police tells you its your own damn fault you got mugged and subsequently ignore you I would seriously start doubting the quality of the local police force. That is not something the police should tell victims of a crime, no matter how stupid those victims behaved before they became a victim. 

     

    If they had to have an adult present they wouldn't have these parties in the first place. I doubt teenagers spend their parties listening to Beethoven and drinking Guinness. Putting responsibility on the grownups just makes the teenagers want to rebel more. I think the whole party culture is problematic. The whole drinking sex and dancing thing is wrong. Whatever happened to normal pastimes like I dunno back when I was thirteen I had a lightsabre... I dunno... But anyway partying should be banned. And all these night clubs should be shut down. And chavs ought to be shot at first sight.

    What is wrong with dancing? Or having sex. Or drinking? Or going out and having fun in a nightclub? As long as its all consensual (and the vast majority of it IS consensual) why would you want to stop it? 

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