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fabsies55

Abandonment due to commute time

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ive read alot, so now, im after the final solution

1) best way to avoid it? what to do when starting a city?

2) i have plenty of transport, could it be because i have too many intersections?

3) i have plenty of zoning, and spread out, so i dont see why my people arent finding jobs... i even have industrial in the city

4) i have the NAM, i have the dupilator mod thing, and still getting abandonment, what the hell? (i also have no neighbouring cities for this city...

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Best way is to never let the demand bars on the RCI for R$$ and R$$$ go negative.

If they go negative it means there are not enough R$$ or R$$$ job openings to support the current population. Then you get no job zots and abandonment.

The second best way is to surround your residential block on all 4 sides with a strip of C and or I zones.

The way I keep the RCI demand bars for R$$ and R$$$ always positive is to take advantage of lot sizes that R$$ and R$$$ can build on.

The R$$$ can only build on 4x3 low density or 2x2 or 2x3 at medium density.

I don't allow the R$$$ to live on low density by not having 4X3 low density zones for them to build on.

I have very few 2x2 or 2x3 medium density lots for the R$$$ in my city. If R$ build on them I bulldoze them, but will allow the R$$ to live on them. I only zone one at a time and won't zone another until it is built on.

The R$$ are encouraged to live on low density 1x1/1x2 lots or 1x1 medium density lots. The R$$ are the only class to build 1x1 medium density houses. I allow the R$ to build low density houses on the 1x1 medium density lots knowing the R$ have no 1x1 medium density building and will probably be torn down soon and R$$ will live there.

I only zone a few at a time and wait til there are built on to zone more.

The R$ are encouraged to live on 1x1 or 1x2 low density lots.

I've played the city 18 years and have had no no jobs zots yet.

Obviously this is my approach for a quality city.

For a quantity city where your aiming at a big pop.

Use aves. They have faster speeds, so they shorten commute times.

Use the RCI demand bars to guide you.

Zone only one residential block at a time, wait till it's built on, before zoning the next one. Check the RCI.

When your city gets big enough for high density buildings, rezone to high density a little at a time.

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Lots of transit facilities is part of the solution.

I avoid abandonment mostly by building bus transport and, if necessary, subway.  To get people around a sparse tile, you can use El Rail which can dive into a subway system when needed, or you can use monorail.

I think neighbor connections are essential once your sity becomes profitable.

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This might seem awkward after you have read WooHoo's text, but if the abandonment occurs in R$$/R$$$ buildings, then you have too much R$$ and R$$$ and too little R$. This is because each job sector (like CO$, CS$$$ or I-M) is fragmented into another -invisible- subset of jobs. For example: a skyscraper office building needs some janitors/cleaners (R$), a whole bunch of your everyday office employees (R$$) and a couple of executives/managers (R$$$). Each job sector has a different distribution of these subjobs, but as a whole your city should have about 1 R$$$ for each 5 R$$ and 4 R$.

Usually if there is abandonment, it is because of a huge amount of high wealth compared to low wealth.

If it is not the wealth ratio which troubles you, well... perhaps your mass transit is not placed strategically enough?

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fabsies55    4
  • Original Poster
  • my transit is fine, the only problem i have is maybe too many road intersections, i have sub/bus 25k capacity each block + monorail that runs around the city, and highways in and around...

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    Originally posted by: HyperGaruda

    This might seem awkward after you have read WooHoo's text, but if the abandonment occurs in R$$/R$$$ buildings, then you have too much R$$ and R$$$ and too little R$. This is because each job sector (like CO$, CS$$$ or I-M) is fragmented into another -invisible- subset of jobs. For example: a skyscraper office building needs some janitors/cleaners (R$), a whole bunch of your everyday office employees (R$$) and a couple of executives/managers (R$$$). Each job sector has a different distribution of these subjobs, but as a whole your city should have about 1 R$$$ for each 5 R$$ and 4 R$.

    Usually if there is abandonment, it is because of a huge amount of high wealth d to low wealtcompareh.

    If it is not the wealth ratio which troubles you, well... perhaps your mass transit is not placed strategically enough?quote>

    Yeah your on the right track HyperGaruda

    Usually if you get abandonment it's because the high wealth to low ration is out of balance. But how do you prevent that from happening.

    It's caused by the R$$$ developer going on a building spree, either building on new zones or tearing down R$ or R$$ buildings and building there. Then if the aren't enough jobs for the new  R$$$ who just moved in you get no job zots and abandonment.

    The same thing can happen with the R$$ developer who can tear down R$ buildings and build there.

    My density and lot size strategy for the various classes was the only way I could think of to prevent the R$$$ and R$$ developers from going on those building sprees that cause the ratios to go out of whack that lead to abandonment.

    Yeah I use a lot of bus stops and place them at the end of the loops and dead ends in my my residential areas (where they meet the road) so they can catch commuters on the way to work.

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    Originally posted by: fabsies55

    my transit is fine, the only problem i have is maybe too many road intersections, i have sub/bus 25k capacity each block + monorail that runs around the city, and highways in and around...quote>

    No traffic congestion that can shorten commute length?

    What's the RCI for R$,R$$ and R$$$ look like.

    Do you have any unbuilt commercial or industry zones so new jobs can be created to shorten trip length.

    Is the abandonment all over your city or clustered in certain spots?

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    its all supply and demand. Higher education means less need for dirty industry, and higher income homes demands fewer farming jobs. Its the worst when you city's economy is structurally changing, and that can lead to abandonment. The worst is the long commute as a cause of abandonment, but the NAM should solve that depending on the settings you use. One final thing, do you have that abandon mod? It should still be in STEX somewhere I thought I re-downloaded it recently/

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    fabsies55    4
  • Original Poster
  • ok, another thing i should mention, and see what people thing, i have a large tile set city, essentially, farms in one corner, industrial in another corner, and i have plenty of low, medium and high density, i have it all, no congestion anywhere AT ALL, nothing like that, and i still get no job zots and abandonment to commute time? WTF? i dont see why? unless all my houses/ medium density are like R$$$ and R$$?

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    No congestion. Then it's probably not enough R$$$ jobs to support the current size of your R$$$ population. Then some of your R$$$ commuters will time out trying to find a job because they can't find a job because there's not enough jobs for them.

    Try downloading the census building. It's a reward building. When you query it, it will have a column named "city" where you can find your R$$$ pop and a column named "drives" where you can find your R$$$ pop that your commerce and industry can support. If the drives is less than city than you don't have enough jobs for your R$$$.

    You can find out if your commerce or industry is most out of whack with your city's needs and zone more. To create more R$$$ jobs.

    http://www.simtropolis.com/stex/index.cfm?p=results

    It's kind of ugly and costs $250/month so I save the game, build it, query it,

    then exit without saving and reload the game.

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    fabsies55    4
  • Original Poster
  • this is the post that hopefully will give all the answers, firstly, i was thinking:

    you guys keep saying "you need more R$ for your CO$$$ jobs, or you dont have enough CO$$$ jobs for your R$$$ buildings, which is why they abandon. i now get all this, but how do you overcome them? how do i get more CO$$$ jobs, for my R$$$ residents, if simcity will not build them for me, despite having PLENTY of commercial zoning? how do i build for these to occur, and build to allow the game to do what i want, ive i have everything right??

    i have health and education to cover the whole city, and still i have some spots which are low education and health for some reason... but anyways, using the census building, i got this for you guys regarding my city...

    R$ - 145,000

    R$$ - 139,000

    R$$$ - 31,000 (because they keep abandoning)

    CO$$ - 55,000

    CO$$$ - 60,000

    CS$ - 4,000

    CS$$ - 20,000

    CS$$$ - 11,000

    2,600 dirty industry, 808, manufacturing and 3000 high tech...

    what do i have to do? thanks...

    i also tried getting rid of all my farming, and replaced it with residential, didnt work... i have no neighbouring cities, but i do have cities in the region, quite a few, and i dont think i made many neighbour connections... which im gonna try now...

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    This is the size of the workforce your commerce and industry can support based on the CS CO and I info you provided.

    R$ 61000 R$$ 78000 and R$$$ 17000

    Since usually 1/3 of your population is too old or too young to be in the workforce I multiplied your R$ R$$ and R$$$ population by .67 to get a workforce of R$ 97000 R$$ 93000 and R$$$21000

    Looks like you don't have enough jobs for any class in your city. Since you have no neighboring cities they can't be commuting?

    If there commuting they could be caught in a commute bug where they travel to a neighboring city, leave it to travel to another neighboring city then get lost in limbo land.

    It's kind of like the garbage bug where city a ships garbage to city b. City b ships the garbage to city c. City c ships the garbage back to city a. The garbage magically disappears and everyone makes money on the neighbor deals.

    Based on your workforce this is the maximum number of jobs they can support. bear in mind if you had this many jobs, there'd be 1.5 jobs per member of the workforce. Also bear in mind that I'm guessing your education is greater than 120 to calculate these numbers.

    CS 53000 CO 101000 and  I 52000

    Since you have CS 35000 CO 115000 and I 4600, Your short on CS jobs and really short on I jobs, and have an excess amount of CO jobs. No wonder no CO is being built. Normally plazas in your commercial areas raise desirability high enough for CO jobs to appear.

    When you query the census building look at the "cap" column. It tells you what % of the demand cap for each class your city is at. If your hover the mouse over the column headings it will give you more info on what they all mean.

    Building more neighbor connections  is good for demand cap relief for commerce and industry. Especially highways.


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    fabsies55    4
  • Original Poster
  • ok, so i need more CS jobs, how do i get them to build??? how do i, manage what gets built, what do i build / replace, make new cities????

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    Connect a neighbor city by subway and build your CO jobs there, right on the border.  While your at it, put in some I jobs beyond the commercial pod.  This will cause traffic getting to work (commercial loves that) and give you your additional I jobs.

    This game plays best with regional stretegies.

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    fabsies55    4
  • Original Poster
  • ive tried sooo hard, like, the whole aim of my game, is to get myself, all of the major original simcity 4 building to build in my city, Van Prooijen and all them, once i acheive that, im happy 3.gif, but ill try it lol

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    I think this is one of the most frequently discussed topics in the forum. I used to have this headache as well and nearly give up.

    Assume your planning is right, in short, you need 2 mods:

    1) Less Abandonment MOD http://www.simtropolis.com/stex/details.cfm?id=14931

    2) RCI Multi MOD http://www.simtropolis.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=41&threadid=97952&STARTPAGE=1

    And

    Set high tax rate for R$$$, because they can drive away R$$ and R$ but not vice versa -> abandonment! (Watch Ava***r ?)

    Also, preserve your R$$ and R$ buildings.

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    fabsies55    4
  • Original Poster
  • but abandonment is in R$$$ buildings mainly? its also in R$ and R$$ but mainly R$$$? i think its because of the whole "not enough jobs things" but anyways 3.gif

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    Once the demand for R$$$ goes negative, stop playing that city.   Go to the city next door and build up commercial or high tech until the demand for R$$$ goes back up.   Our Moose friend is correct:  this game is designed for regional play.

    Are you using commuter rail?   Given the chance, they will cram on the trains to the point that the trains are profitable.

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    Meg has a good point. 

    I just had to double my subway run between two cities which were in the same problem you describe, but it came about in a different way.  I build my cities on large tiles in pods or suburbs.  In my westernmost 'burb, all the people in my high rises wanted to work out of town (the roads going out were hot), so I built them a subway connection, moved over to the next city to the west, and created a huge pod of commercial with the subway continuing through it.  After a couple of days of play (several Sim years), the subway became so hot, I doubled the tubes and attached all stations across both tubes.  Cool for now, but I am wondering what the next problem will be. 

    If there is one thing I've noticed over the years is that Sims like to ride the railroads.  You have to be careful not to create a loop or they will ride round and round and never go to work.

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    Another good regional strategy is to make an R$ city, with full education.  If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times 3.gif, fully educated R$ can work anywhere.  (Well, except for I-R.)  They will commute to your other cities with good connections; they will ride the bus, whatever, they aren' fussy.  With any luck, it will help to stabilize region demand.  It's a bit tricky to keep it R$, but if you don't give them many services except education, it can be done.

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    Originally posted by: A Nonny Moose

    Transit System is rLots of transit facilities is part of the solution.

    I avoid abandonment mostly by building bus transport and, if necessary, subway.  To get people around a sparse tile, you can use El Rail which can dive into a subway system when needed, or you can use monorail.

    I think neighbor connections are essential once your sity becomes profitable.

    quote>

    Transit systems are better than car, but not always better.

    There are not much cars, but my transport systems are crowded 15.gif

    I have build a lot of bus stops and subways, but not very helpful, crowded...

    Any ideas?

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    Originally posted by: SamPkillER

     

    Transit systems are better than car, but not always better.

    There are not much cars, but my transport systems are crowded

    I have build a lot of bus stops and subways, but not very helpful, crowded...

    Any ideas?

    quote>

    If I remember correctly bus stops and subway stops can run at 400% capacity without any problems.

    After that they stop carrying more commuters. So as long as they're carrying commuters don't worry about how crowded they are.

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    fabsies55    4
  • Original Poster
  • ok, sorry haven't replied in ages, been really busy with education and work stuff haha... unfortunately, holidays soon so gonna get back into this...

    gonna work on creating a new region and city journals and all that... just wanna clarify some stuff

    so i should working to try and... simplify my transport? example, straight highway connects from CBD to industry? and it terms of subway? if i have example, 9 blocks, think of a 3x3 grid? should i put a subway in every corner of each block? or just one or two stations?

    no loops? i dont understand the term put stations at the end of loops or whatever it is?

    and, what i got from some of this is that, i should be making my cities as regionally active as i can?

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    ...and, what i got from some of this is that, i should be making my cities as regionally active as i can?

    It is FAR easier to grow your city if its connected to 2 other cities, than if its all alone. I've even built cities with just roads, power, police and fire, and collected tolls to build my bank. Then built commercial where the traffic was. As long as there is residential in neighboring cities, you can start a city without any R at all, and make your bank back so you can do it right when you're ready.

    If you mix your zones well, and have connections to healthy neighboring cities, commute time and jobs will be less of an issue. My times are usually between 60-120 minutes, and my sims seem happy with that.

    I think Moose is right about loops... both the inter-city travel loop bug, and the ridership loops on rail. I don't use rail anymore, but do use subways, and have found that they work best in R and C, not I. Rail works pretty well for I, but takes up more surface space than I like, personally, esp since I integrate my zones pretty well already.

    There are a lot of great suggestions above. Some of my faves are building plazas near commercial, zoning commercial where traffic is heaviest, and taking advantage of connections to your neighbor cities. I also try to put a mass transit station next to EVERY 3x4 or 4x4 R/C zone, and run subway lines adjacent (not under) surface roads, so that I can discern the difference on the traffic volume/congestion overlay.

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    There are a lot of myths about how traffic works in SC4, and a large proportion of them are completely wrong. I would strongly suggest that anyone interested in the inner workings of traffic in SC4 read at least the first part of A Guide to the Operation of the Traffic Simulator.

    I think Moose is right about loops... both the inter-city travel loop bug, and the ridership loops on rail.

    The only time loops are a problem is when they encompass three or more cities. Otherwise, the traffic simulator is smart enough to prevent them. Eternal commuter loops never happen within the boundaries of a single city, or even between two cities. You may occasionally see automata going around in circles, but this is just the automata, and does not reflect the actual traffic flow. You can verify this using the Route Query Tool.

    I don't use rail anymore, but do use subways, and have found that they work best in R and C, not I.

    This is just an artifact of the way you set up your particular cities. The traffic simulator does not differentiate between zones when calculating routes. The NAM traffic simulator always finds the fastest route to work,

    Rail works pretty well for I, but takes up more surface space than I like, personally, esp since I integrate my zones pretty well already.

    Again, rail works equally well for all zones.

    I also try to put a mass transit station next to EVERY 3x4 or 4x4 R/C zone, and run subway lines adjacent (not under) surface roads, so that I can discern the difference on the traffic volume/congestion overlay.

    I've never had any problem seeing traffic volume and congestion with subways right under the roads; it's more realistic, and it allows you to put stations on either side of the road. (Of course, you could always put in connector links, but that becomes tiresome after a while.)

    so i should working to try and... simplify my transport? example, straight highway connects from CBD to industry?

    It's not necessary to make your transportation network particularly simple, as the NAM traffic simulator is quite sophisticated about finding the best routes.

    and it terms of subway? if i have example, 9 blocks, think of a 3x3 grid? should i put a subway in every corner of each block? or just one or two stations?

    Subways are one of the hidden secrets of the traffic simulator. In general, the more subways your city has, the less abandonment due to commute time you'll have. (The same actually goes for all forms of rail transit, but since the other forms take up real estate, it's not practical to use them as much as you can use subways.) As for subway stops, you'll get the most out of your subways if you have a stop every block. To avoid making a big impact on your city with all those stations, I'd recommend looking into RTMT. If you install it, be sure to install the RTMT Add-On Pack V3.60 as well, as this has important updates and fixes.

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    I've never had any problem seeing traffic volume and congestion with subways right under the roads; it's more realistic, and it allows you to put stations on either side of the road. (Of course, you could always put in connector links, but that becomes tiresome after a while.)

    Well, I actually don't use roads much, I use Avenues almost everywhere. So as long as its only running down one side or the other anyway, I split it out for clarity on the map. Its just easier for me to discern whether an intersection's congestion is surface or subway.

    Thanks for the clarity on the other stuff. Perhaps my subways get used less for industrial just because they're lower density than my other R/C zones. I still think surface rail wastes real estate, and assumed it was really just there for people going for realism, since my early attempts to use it were less productive than other solutions.

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    Again, rail works equally well for all zones.

    Unless there is a wealth level preference in effect for a property, where the sims in a building might prefer driving to mass transit or the fastest method. I seem to have experienced this in some of my cities. Of course, as you say, the zone doesn't matter, but the wealth level of what grows on it does have a secondary effect on overall use.

    Thanks for the link to that Traffic Simulator info. Good stuff to know.


      Edited by UncleSim  

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    I still think surface rail wastes real estate, and assumed it was really just there for people going for realism, since my early attempts to use it were less productive than other solutions.

    It's actually about a third faster than other forms of rail, with the exception of monorail. But as with all mass transit, you need lots of stations for maximum use.

    Unless there is a wealth level preference in effect for a property, where the sims in a building might prefer driving to mass transit or the fastest method.

    The wealth level preference has only a limited effect. What it does is to make the preferred form of transit act as if it's a little faster than it actually is. But when the difference in speeds are great (e.g., cars at 50 kph and commuter rail at 140 kph), this difference is nowhere near enough to make up for the speed difference in travel types if trips by the two networks are of similar length. So even if cars are preferred, if there's a rail stop near the Sim's origin and destination, or the total trip time by driving is at least a little longer than the total trip time by rail, the Sim will choose the train. However, Sims won't go way out of their way to take the train if that makes the wealth-adjusted trip length greater than driving.

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    Thanks again. Ya, I get that, that its a relatively minor effect, merely influencing the decision, not making it. But of course those effects can be noticeable during gameplay depending on city design, since if they weren't, there would be little reason for including them.

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    But of course those effects can be noticeable during gameplay depending on city design, since if they weren't, there would be little reason for including them.

    Definitely. For example, they have a very noticeable effect on whether Sims drive or take the bus, since the speeds of those two vehicles are very close. That's why about the only time you'll find rich Sims taking the bus is when they take it to a rapid transit station.

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